Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby Chuckg » May 17th, 2009, 3:32 am

Imported from this digression in the 'Plot Bunnies' thread.

My reply to the latest post in that discussion...
While he does try to do the best he can for the common people of Europa, he also dissects the brains of fellow Sparks when he gets the free time. He almost did it to Othar and he strongly implied that he had done it many times previous to that occasion.
Klaus has to deal with the fact that by the very nature of the Spark -- that it inevitably concentrates the reins of power *in the hands of people who are congenitally prone to madness* -- Europa is inherently doomed to balkanization, war, and mass death. His own iron-fisted conquest of Europa is only a temporary stopgap solution, as it requires him to be alive to maintain the political stability of Europa and his /Pax Wulfenbach/ over all the other Sparks, from day to day.

So, what's Klaus supposed to do for a long-term strategy? What are his possible solutions here?

a) Raise and train an heir who can provide at least one more generation of stability after he dies.

He is already doing this, witness Gilgamesh. But since this is only delaying the inevitable collapse of society back into war, war, war again, not permanently preventing it, he has to try something else in addition to. Perhaps:

b) Note that since it is possible if extremely, extremely rare to have sane and stable sparks (Bill & Barry Heterodyne, himself, and Gilgamesh), to try and reproduce the conditions that created such people, notably, proper upbringing of young Sparks with careful attention paid to their psychological development.

You did notice that his 'hostages' of the various rulers of Europa are a cross-section of their brightest Spark children? And that Klaus is trying to raise them to be ethical and restrained in the use of their power, and to suppress their natural Madboy/Madgirl urges?

But even this isn't enough to be sure of success, so in addition, there's also...

c) Find out just exactly what the Spark /is/, to see if its possible to debug it.

And that is what he is doing with the research on Othar and the other Sparks you mentioned. Who are, BTW, mass murdering psychopaths all of them (yes, even the janitor with the dolls. Witness what they say about his career /before/ he was lobotomized), so I really can't find my heart bleeding for them. Sure, they're being kept alive for medical experiments, but given that they'd all have been *executed* if they weren't needed for this project, its not like Klaus is being Europa's version of Sylar here. Klaus isn't doing this because he gets his jollies eating brains. Klaus is doing this because *he is trying to find a way to cure Spark insanity*.

Because, y'know, there's only two known ways at present to stop an insane Spark on the rampage from being an insane Spark on the rampage, and that's to either kill them or lobotomize them into vegetables. Both of which Klaus has done before, and will do again as often as need be. But he doesn't actually enjoy doing it, and would love to have a less destructive alternative. Except that there isn't one. Which is why he's trying to invent one...

If somebody actually did find a way to either harmlessly remove the Spark from people who had gone totally insane with it, or even better, maybe find and debug the flaw in the Spark that produces such a strong tendency towards insanity in the first place... well, then, the world could finally come out of the Dark Ages.

As for Agatha's being on the run from the ruler of Europa, yes, she is. But she is in that situation because of her own choices, not because Klaus left her with no choice.

She didn't *have* to refuse Gilgamesh's offer. She didn't *have* to run away from Castle Wulfenbach. She didn't have to consistently misinterpret every one of Klaus' actions as 'proof' of a hostile intent he didn't have at that time, and build him up in her mind into some kind of cartoon villain desperately chasing after her. Because Klaus was hardly going to going to kill his best friend's daughter or lock her in an oubliette for life, he simply didn't want her charging around Europa kicking over the political situation out of random ignorance. Which, y'know, puts her on the same level as every other Spark prince and princess in Europa, as witness how he treats them. So again, I have no sympathy for her as regards this. No matter what she was told, the woman is supposed to have eyes and a brain... just looking at how Klaus treats the students of his 'Spark school' should have told her that he actually would have given her a fair shake.

Klaus doesn't actually become Agatha's mortal enemy until after the Other, in her body, monologues /directly into his face/ as to who she is, where he is, and what she intends. Note here that even after Klaus has received what would appear to be conclusive evidence that Agatha is the Other, he still refuses to condemn her to death without finding out for 100% certain first. This is not a villain's act here, its a hero's. Because if Klaus were an evil man, there is no way he'd have not skipped straight to "shoot on sight" the instant that Agatha appeared to be a major threat. Instead, his current decision to put her in the ground is precipitated only by the Other actually slapping him in the damn face with a slaver wasp while in Agatha's body. Hell, Klaus' current condition is due only to the fact that he actually /did/ try to act decently: had he simply had Agatha shot on sight, or napalmed the town, right now he'd be perfectly fine. But that would have involved murdering innocents, or possible innocents... and so he did not.

Sure, Klaus is out to kill her /now/ -- what other choice does he have? As far as he can possibly know, Agatha is *still* dominated by the Other, and more importantly, either Agatha /or/ the Other can /take control of Klaus' mind the next time they speak to him/. He only currently possesses freedom of action from the slaver wasp because outside of one standing order ('do not tell anyone you're wasped'), the Other didn't have time to give him commands. So Klaus is now in a position where he cannot even safely speak to Agatha without the dire, and very real, risk that he will give the Other the keys to conquering Europa on a silver platter -- not to mention making himself her mind-slave for life, a horrific fate and a half. Negotiation is thus impossible. He's got to either put Agatha down or accept that he's a dead man, and if he falls, Europa burns. *This* is how far he has to be driven before he finally tries to kill Agatha, and only then. So seriously, 'Klaus as villain' makes no sense as a theory: if he were actually the villain, Agatha wouldn't have lived remotely this long. Its only very recently that her life *hasn't* been in a position where he could snuff it out with casual effort.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby SquirrelyRequiem » May 17th, 2009, 10:13 am

I think...perhaps the Fogilos explained it best with this...
Image


Not that I can see the results as anything but good.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby bibliophile20 » May 17th, 2009, 11:48 am

Yup. As this is a work of fiction, there has to be a source of tension to move the plot forward, which is particularly well crafted in this case because all parties can only attack each other, and not the real villain of the piece--although trying to roll up her conspiracy has possibilities. But still, Agatha has every reason to be running from the Baron, given his usual tactics until she can sit down and talk with him on semi-equal footing.

Also, remember that, as of the most recent comic, it has been, at most, a week, possibly two, since Agatha "woke up" at the Baron's feet, freed from the Other's influence. In that time she has been recovering from massive sleep deprivation, been on the run from the Baron, infiltrated the Castle and more. It's not really fair to the character to armchair quarterback saying "this is what you should have done" when the character is running for her life and the lives of her compatriots--decisions made in the heat of combat and high stress situations are never optimal unless the person has trained to deal with those situations. (Plus, at the conclusion of the fight at the circus wagons, Agatha wasn't the one who made the initial decision to run, as she was unconscious at the time).

Now, given how genre savvy the characters are, the fact that Zeetha deliberately makes sure that Gil knows about Agatha's possession is good news and will hopefully lead to an armistice... if he doesn't get splattered by a crazed, embittered ex-professor piloting a mech with chainguns of doom first.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby Chuckg » May 17th, 2009, 1:45 pm

Also, remember that, as of the most recent comic, it has been, at most, a week, possibly two, since Agatha "woke up" at the Baron's feet, freed from the Other's influence. In that time she has been recovering from massive sleep deprivation, been on the run from the Baron, infiltrated the Castle and more. It's not really fair to the character to armchair quarterback saying "this is what you should have done" when the character is running for her life and the lives of her compatriots--decisions made in the heat of combat and high stress situations are never optimal unless the person has trained to deal with those situations. (Plus, at the conclusion of the fight at the circus wagons, Agatha wasn't the one who made the initial decision to run, as she was unconscious at the time).
This I've already acknowledged -- Agatha's initial decision to flee from the Baron's attempted beheading last week was entirely rational under the circumstances.

However, that should have lasted, at most, just long enough for to catch some sleep, be brought up to date on recent events by Zeetha and co, and sit down and have a think. Because from the point where she decides to make the excursion into Castle Heterodyne forward, Agatha is no longer running in blind panic from anything, so she loses the excuse of 'reaction to immediate events'. She had time to sit down and plan at length and made a conscious decision to move forward, into the castle. Which means I get to "armchair quarterback" again.

Furthermore, 'She was not trained for this' is absolutely no excuse, for the simple reason that Agatha /knows/ she isn't, /and has chosen to keep going ahead anyway/. Ignorance and inexperience is only an excuse for getting it wrong when you are /drafted/ into doing something... if you go in of your own free will, then you've chosen to accept the risks. Including the risks inherent in your, mmm, lack of preparation.

So, Agatha wants to take command of a plucky band of heroes and lead them on great quests? OK, fine, she can do that... but that means she no longer gets to plead inexperience if she fails. Uneasy sits the butt that bears the boss, and once you've *chosen* to take command, then command's responsibilities are all yours to bear -- trained or not.

I mean, when did being inexperienced count as an excuse? If circumstances pitch you into things entirely against your will and keep you there, then yes. But if you actually had a choice about staying in the thick of it or not, and chose "not", then right there your excuse evaporates. Its like /choosing/ to go driving your parents' car without any driving lessons -- when you back the car into the swimming pool, its still nobody's fault but yours.

And lastly, yes, not /all/ of the circumstances driving Agatha apart from, oh, everyone else who could possibly have helped, are of her choosing. (Just enough of them that I can still criticize her.) The rest of them are the Foglios' fault, in choosing to build dramatic tension by overusing the tropes you listed to the point they die of exhaustion. Is why I also criticized the writing.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby SquirrelyRequiem » May 22nd, 2009, 10:44 am

I would just like to say that, as of today's comic, my thoughts regarding the Spark's lack of increased physical power are making a tactical retreat for now.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby Chuckg » May 22nd, 2009, 3:04 pm

I'm honestly surprised Gilgamesh was actually allowed to win a fight instead of Agatha... although since they mentioned his being injured, it could be there to sideline him so he can't make a difference later, it could very well be another instance of temporarily sidelining a character who would otherwise have been able to stop Agatha from yet again charging straight into the heart of 'Dear God, why the hell did you that?!?'

... yeah, I'm expecting the worst again. I get kicked in the hopes often enough by an author, I start doing that.

As for Sparks and physical power, while Zeetha (and Agatha, post-Zeetha-training) do show exceptional prowess, Gilgamesh's level of ripping clanks apart with his bare hands seems to be a step above even the common Spark: then again, does anyone here seriously believe that his father *hasn't* augmented him (as well as himself) with everything he could safely fit in his body? The Wulfenbachs are probably at least half cyborg.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby Farmer_10 » June 1st, 2009, 12:41 am

Or at least part-Jager judging by a comment from Mamma Gkika.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby SLAMU » October 18th, 2009, 3:51 pm

Of the people that read the comic, who enjoys the little easter eggs in the background? For example, Heterodyne Castle's decorations. "My vacation" poster about halfway down the page here amuses me.

As for the plot, I do admit feeling more for the Baron than others, but I've got a bit of a soft spot for 'bad guys', and he's got everything that any 'evil' overlord would want: a competent army, highly creative R&D teams (sometimes too creative, but still...), sufficiently competent opponents to keep things from being boring, loyal progeny, underlings that love their jobs (DuPree, anyone?) a mobile base that can cow most anything, and most importantly, impeccable fashion sense! The fact that he didn't want to have these things in the first place is only a bonus IMHO.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby Farmer_10 » October 18th, 2009, 5:40 pm

Despite what the cast thinks, I don't think the baron was ever the bad guy. He's just a guy trying to keep things running and unfortunately that involves playing the dictator. He's like Vetinari but with the added inconvenience of running an entire country instead of just a city and nobody liking the system he set up despite the oh so obvious fact that it works.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby SirKaid » October 19th, 2009, 12:19 am

Yeah, the Baron gets a bad rap even though his system is the only one that works. He's a mean bastard, sure, but only because he needs to be. Every evil thing he does really is for the "greater good", so to speak. Subjugating Europa and ruling as an iron-fisted tyrant? Under the Pax Wulfenbach the constant warring and mindless destruction of the past doesn't occur. Who cares if he needs to execute every single person who rises up against him? Sparks are inherently dangerous to everyone and only very rarely are they sane. Rarer still are sane, moral Sparks. Doing brain surgery on Sparks? If he can find out how to either turn off the Sparky gene or at least make them sane there's a chance the peace will survive past his death. Even raising Gil is for the singular purpose of having a successor who might possibly be able to keep things together when he dies.

As for chasing Agatha... He thinks, with good reason, that she's the Other. Even if he didn't, though, she's an extremely strong Spark and the daughter of the most loved Spark ever. If she tries she might very well be able to turn all his work to ruin simply by existing. Moreover his son, the contingency plan for if his research into how Sparks work takes too long, is in love with her. He really can't afford to let her wander the countryside, especially since he's been Slaver Wasped. At this point it's perfectly reasonable for him to want her to be dead.

...Wow, I went off on a bit of a rant there. Can you tell the Baron's my favourite character? :P
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby Chuckg » October 19th, 2009, 6:14 am

Technically, Agatha *IS* the Other -- or, more precisely, only the continued functioning of one breakable, lose-able amulet prevents Agatha from becoming the Other at any given time. But I've already given my speech as to why Agatha is irresponsibly gambling the fate of the entire planet for selfish reasons by not immediately having herself placed in very secure restraints while Gil works on some method of getting the Other out of her damn brain, and not to let her out until he succeeds.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby Dechstreme » May 28th, 2010, 2:08 am

Question.... HAS EVERYONE FORGOTTEN THAT AGATHA'S MOTHER ALSO HAS A COPY OF HER MIND GALIVANTING AROUND IN A CLANK/MUSE BODY!?!?

And if you have seen the latest developments in the comic... Concerning Von Pimm and Castle Heterodyne...

Of course, while we get back to that, our favorite Jager boys are back in the scene for much merriments and HATS!!!
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby SLAMU » May 29th, 2010, 4:15 am

"De hats! How could Hy hef forgot de sveet hats after all des veeks? Quickly, ve musht hef sveet hats!"
Mr. Wulfenbach did not forget his nize hat.

But yes, I'm actually more interested in what the Baron is going to do.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby Dechstreme » May 29th, 2010, 11:26 pm

The Baron is knocked inconcious by his head doctor, who apparently is also an Ancient Kung Fu master who can destroy huge clanks with his bare hands. So, he won't be doing much of anything for the time being.

I remember back in one of the earlier chapters Von Pimm was believed to be Agatha's mother... and now, it seems that was only HALF the truth.

Here is the way I see things going:

They get the castle's mind to where it's supposed to go, they restore Von Pimm to her old Muse body... and they drop Lucrecia Mongfish into the dying shell that used to be her own body, living just long enough to tell them of her other copy.

And I also see Tarvek getting a spanking for helping The Other when he did. At least, once they learn of his complicity.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby gamebrain89 » November 16th, 2012, 3:41 pm

*Charges up the Tesla Coils, Cackles madly*

ARISE O THREAD!

Now, I KNOW lots of people around here are still keeping up with Girl Genius. So what say we make use of this, eh?

I finally went and binged through the comic about a month ago or so, having heard nothing but awesome things about it, and was suitably entertained so that it was added to my usual Webcomic rounds. I particularly enjoy when Oggie, Maxim and Dimo are front and center. Probably some of the best characters in the entire webcomic.

As for the current events....whatever those things are that tore through the Knights of Jove's mech suits, are terrifying. Hell, they even have one of the Jaeger generals advocating running in terror.

Today's strip in particular though...heh. It's like Agatha gave the trio an early christmas present. "Whoo! YAH! VE HUNT!" :biggrin: and they of course drag Moloch along for the ride.
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Re: Girl Genius Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

Unread postby Farmer_10 » November 16th, 2012, 5:38 pm

Moloch's my favorite character at the moment. He's so good at his job and he hates it. Followed closely by Gil. He called down the lightning. Still the most kickass deathray in the series.
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