The Last Airbender

[Dechstreme]

I feel like I accidentally poked a beehive...

More like a nest of Hornets, Spence.

[ewuvi]

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...

...

Okay, hey, I remembered something, and it's relevant to the argument of 'how dare they poopoo the Northern Water Tribe's cultural traditions'.

Last year I had several classes with a young woman from Kyrgyzstan. It came up that there was a legitimate concern that she would be abducted and forced into marriage.

I mean, what? Kidnapped and forced into marriage? But it turns out that there was a long history of such practices in the region, and, under the Soviet Union, the practice was outlawed. Since the country regained sovereignty, the practice has reemerged, as a way of 'embracing' the culture that they had been stripped of under SU rule.

Link for those interested.

So yes, a certain degree of respect for a culture is necessary, of course it is! But if it's clearly harmful and subjecting a group of people, then no, it's not acceptable, and it should be rectified! Doing so isn't an attack on the culture, it's an an attempt to address basic human rights!

However, remember that this a show targeted at children, and the message that 'injustice should be faced down and rectified, even when it's difficult' was quite clearly the message. The idea that subjugation and such practices are, and should be considered 'acceptable' simply because the practice has been perpetuated throughout many generations is abhorrent and not something you want to teach your children.

In the case of Avatar: TLA, it could easily be seen as the duty of the Avatar to rectify social injustice in the attempt to bring everyone closer to harmony and peace.

[LifeOfGesture]

I love when discussions like these happens. In other news, I think the actor for J. Jonah Jameson being Tenzin's voice actor is pretty damn slamming and the twelve episode season will be cool, if short.

[Arganaut]

J. Jonah Jameson being Tenzin's voice actor

[Minion]

I was tempted, sorely tempted, to keep silence and just let it go. I wouldn't want to ruin the thread and have it closed down for everyone. But I am confident I can address the issue without offending anyone.

(Although after I started composing a response, class and work postponed completion. Also, for whatever reason, previewing my post took FOREVER.)

So here I go. Uh, pardon the long post, it's mostly quotes anyhow.

Mmmm.... You do realize that:

A) The ideology of "the lives of women are valuable and as such we as men must protect them" that was originally established in tribal societies was eventually twisted into the "women are naturally inferior, so we as men should rule them" patriarcal ideology that eventually took hold in most of the world and has prevailed even to our times.

B) Many ancient traditions DO have a logical and sound reason or justification for their implementation, but as time has passed, the justification for some of them has been lost due to changes in society itself. Not to mention many of them were sometimes zealously enforced only out of fanatism rather than anything else.

C) As I see it, the intented aesop of that episode was "girls should be allowed to learn whatever proffession or work they want to learn and to decide for themselves". Granted, the message could have been handled a lot better as FeatherBlade says.

On the other hand, while in the context of the story the tradition of removing women from the warrior caste could still make sense, the problem is that, in these days of movements for liberation and equity of the sexes, you can't have a kids program sending a message that could be interpreted as enforcing the aforementioned patriarcal ideology.

There's also the point to consider that the tradition has outlived it's usefulness.

It's not really a tribe anymore. That is a modern city! Tribal traditions have very little to do with it anymore. Now it's the beginning of the mentioned twisting.

Waterbending likely had a lot to do with it. It reduces the dangers of the north pole considerably, since you can control your environment to a ridiculous degree. Need to make sure the ground you walk on is safe? Ask the waterbender. If it's not? Well you have a waterbender.

As soon as waterbending became a strong factor in society the tribal culture would change rather quickly. Of course, time honered traditions wouldn't. And for the most part those still worked fine.

That doesn't mean that they are still necessary or all that valuable though.

Also, how does not knowing how to fight make the women safer? If women are biologically more important and thus aren't to be risked in war or whatever, fine. But war can easily come to your home, and everyone would be safer if female waterbenders also knew combat techniques. The fact is that Pakku flatly refused to train someone who needed training because she was a woman. That has nothing to do with the structure of Pakku's society. It's just sexism.

You are separating Pakku's initial refusal to teach Katara from the structure of his society? How does that work when one is the direct cause of the other? He told them that it was forbidden in the NP for women to learn waterbending, so how is it separate? Pakku did believe that Katara needed training, just in the healing arts rather than combat. He was very rooted in his customs, but when he was lead to believe that they cost him the woman he loved, he agreed to teach Katara.

Thank-you. These are all excellent points as to why the Northern Water Tribe should allow women and girls to learn the offensive arts of waterbending. I happen to agree. To me, all people are equal regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, bladder control, what have you. Unfortunately, neither Aang or Katara raised any of these points. Katara throws a tantrum, literally called the customs stupid, and gets her way.

Oh, and comparing the separation of waterbending women from warrior caste to slavery and racism...

Mmmm, yes. Because the exclusion from women from being able, oh, decide who they married, or have a voice in society is so not subjugation. In fact, sexism is perfectly acceptable! Women wanting equality is simply them being whiny, they really should just be good little girls and do what their fathers and elder brothers tell them. Simply because they have a uterus and not a penis! I would say sexism and racism are equally bad on the 'caused by bigotry' scale. Wouldn't you know, women got the right to vote even after african americans! Wonder why? Because even when racism became unacceptable, sexism still was.

It's funny that you mention that. (I'm not about to say something snide, it really is funny). I brought this issue up in my woman's history course, the chasm this created between civil rights and woman's rights, caused by the "This hour belongs to the Negro" mentality, preached by those who felt extending the votes to black males was priority, and would be in jeopardy if women were also included.

In my opinion, there is no comparison between the struggle of black Americans and the alleged hardship of Water Tribe woman not learning to waterbend.

I recently attended a seminar about the legacy of Martin Luther King in the Era of Obama. We examined his letter from Birmingham jail. In it, King states that we have a moral obligation to disobey an unjust law, because the purpose of law is not order, but justice. I have no problem with protesting laws. How it is done, though, is crucial. Would King be remembered as a grand leader had he not been committed to nonviolence? I find it doubtful.

And more than that, King states that while disobeying a law, you must be willing to accept the consequences. When Pakku said that, because his traditions were disrespected he would no longer teach Aang, the response was essentially a tantrum. (And before arguing how important it was for Aang to learn waterbending and the fate of the world, remember that Pakku would have continued teaching Aang if Katara had put her pride aside and apologized. She refused. Why make Katara apologize, well, cause he's a dick. Although Katara isn't much better for whacking him in the back of the head with a water whip. More on that later ).

One of the key differences separating the two situations? The conflict with slavery, abolition, the civil war, civil rights, these events were instigated by Americans, and the participants were Americans.

Katara doesn't even live in the Northern Water Tribe. She asserts her view as an outsider on customs she is unfamiliar with. Anything she encounters that she feels is a hardship is something she is subjecting herself to by entering the NP.

Would it be acceptable for an ambassador of the US to condemn an African President for having multiple spouses? While the ambassador was visiting the President's country? I can't imagine the answer to that being 'yes', so I'll assume it was universally 'no'.

Forcing your values on a culture not your own is a very arrogant and presumptuous thing to do. Especially when there is no undue harm being done to anyone. So for me there is no comparison between slavery and women not being included as warriors. It isn't just an entirely different country with an entirely different culture, it's an entirely different world.

Why impose personal feelings and values of your own society on another? I believe strongly in the basic human right to exist without undue suffering being inflicted on your person. Were the women suffering? Yue was, but that's another story. Sort of. It involves a lot of teenage angst. I'm talking about the waterbenders. The girl's in the healing hut? From what I recall, they were smiling and happy to be learning medicinal arts.

Except Katara.

(And speaking of suffering, when Katara attacked Pakku from behind, in the head, he could have fucking slapped her down hardcore. I would have. Frustration or not, that just isn't acceptable behavior; I'd have been pissed off beyond measure. Instead he just embarrassed her a little, and even complimented her ability).

Something interesting I noticed: Pakku didn't teach girls waterbending. He taught Katara. Only Katara. When she's beating down on the boys, there are no other girls present, not even observing the training. Isn't that interesting? And we know that, during the series at least, he definitely didn't teach any other girls, because he left the North Pole immediately. Does no one else find it jarring that all is well as long as Katara got what she wanted?

And if it is truly that unbearable, you know what the women could do? Leave. Like Grangran chose to. That would be another huge difference. Slaves had to run, but Gran left freely. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that the non-bending Gran escaped under the nose of the patrol that picked up Appa and Co. I doubt she had Zuko stealth.

Sexism is an incredibly destructive and toxic practice that is never justifiable, especially not in the instance shown in the Northern Water Tribe. That people in today's world are still trying to defend such practices makes me weep.

If a boy wanted to be a healer, and was barred from that, I would object to that as well.

If you want to argue that Aang and Katara are, as people that are clearly meant to be idealistic and bring a viewpoint of equality and harmony to places that have customs that conflict with those, and that there is some struggle as a result, then fine, go ahead. But do not pretend that breaking a custom that subjugates half or more of the population is 'wrong'.

Don't cry, okay? Or I'll start crying .

I'm not defending the traditions, ewuvi. I'm criticizing Aang and Katara for their conduct in how they went about defying the tradition/law of a nation whose customs were foreign to them. That is where my ire truly lies. I agree that the woman should be permitted to learn waterbending. I think it's wrong that they be excluded. But again, those are my views as an outsider. The same with everyone else. (Unless you are an eskimo, then please chime in).

Neither Aang nor Katara were being paragons of human decency as they objected. They were being disrespectful, self-entitled little assholes. And I make no apology for that statement. Again, there is a way to protest a law you find unjust.

Okay, hey, I remembered something, and it's relevant to the argument of 'how dare they poopoo the Northern Water Tribe's cultural traditions'.

Last year I had several classes with a young woman from Kyrgyzstan. It came up that there was a legitimate concern that she would be abducted and forced into marriage.

I mean, what? Kidnapped and forced into marriage? But it turns out that there was a long history of such practices in the region, and, under the Soviet Union, the practice was outlawed. Since the country regained sovereignty, the practice has reemerged, as a way of 'embracing' the culture that they had been stripped of under SU rule.

Link for those interested.

So yes, a certain degree of respect for a culture is necessary, of course it is! But if it's clearly harmful and subjecting a group of people, then no, it's not acceptable, and it should be rectified! Doing so isn't an attack on the culture, it's an an attempt to address basic human rights!

However, remember that this a show targeted at children, and the message that 'injustice should be faced down and rectified, even when it's difficult' was quite clearly the message. The idea that subjugation and such practices are, and should be considered 'acceptable' simply because the practice has been perpetuated throughout many generations is abhorrent and not something you want to teach your children.

In the case of Avatar: TLA, it could easily be seen as the duty of the Avatar to rectify social injustice in the attempt to bring everyone closer to harmony and peace.

That part I put in bold? I've got a big problem with that. (Of course that other stuff is appalling...)
Learning a mystical martial art from an esteemed master is not a basic human right. It is a privilege.
Otherwise, every time someone experienced refused to teach something useful to someone inexperienced, they would be violating their basic human rights.
If Piandao had refused to teach Sakka, would his rights have been violated? No. There is no right to learn. The reason for rejection, even if it is discrimination, also does not make it a right to learn a skill from an individual.

As for the Avatar correcting social injustice, no, at least I don't think so. The Avatar's duties are continuously stated to be: a) acting as a bridge between the spirit world and physical, and b) keeping harmony between the four nations. If it does not concern either matter, then it isn't necessarily the Avatar's place to intervene. I mentioned Roku earlier; during his training to become a fully fledged Avatar, you'll notice that he adopted the customs of wherever he traveled. The Avatar is suppose to be understanding of the cultures he/she visits, not condemning them to act accordingly as he/she sees fit. The Avatar is a citizen of ALL FOUR NATIONS. Roku states the four nations are meant to be separate. This must include customs as well.

There was harmony in the North Pole. Conflict only ignited with the arrival of petulant outsiders.

So in conclusion, I ask this: when Pakku says, and I quote, "You have disrespected me, my teachings, and my entire culture," is he wrong?

That is my piece. Hope I didn't upset anyone too much.

[Wittgen]

When I said it had nothing to do with the structure of his society, I spoke poorly. I wanted to convey that his decision didn't stem from any part of his culture that had any kind of intrinsic value. Of course sexism comes from societal structure. That doesn't make it any less abhorrent. In fact, the institutionalization of prejudice makes it worse. Just because a society is a certain way does not make it OK that it is that way.

Learning a sacred martial art isn't a basic human right, but being treated like a human being first and foremost is. By refusing to teach her purely based on her gender, Pakku was transgressing against that right.

Your arguments about the women waterbenders being happy are silly. The seeming happiness of some people in complying with societal norms does not say that those norms are good. If you go to any period in human history, you can find women happily acting within their culture's assigned roles for women. Yet for all of history, women have been oppressed and it has been really quite bad. Also, "if you don't like it, you can just leave" is, as always, one of the worst arguments that can be floated. Leaving everyone and everything you know is terrible and a terrible hardship to boot. Fighting against/to change flawed power structures is not a morally wrong choice, for an outsider or an insider.

"Self-entitled little assholes," really? The group of children on an epic, grueling quest to save the world from a powerful, genocidal empire were "self-entitled little assholes" because they could not tactfully circumvent the sexism entrenched in northern water tribe culture? It's hard for grown people to handle that deep seated, subtly entrenched hatred when it suddenly pops up and smacks them in the face somehow. Responding the way Katara did, with shock and rage, is kind of natural. The other realistic reaction would have been to be shocked to the point of freezing up.

You keep pointing out that they're outsiders, and I disagree with that really being germane to the argument. We're talking about human rights, and they trump cultural traditions. If a culture says that people need to be treated different because they're a woman, or a certain color, or because they're ancestors made shoes for a living, that culture is wrong. I get the skittishness about being culturally imperialistic, but refusing to accept subjugation or discrimination as OK is not cultural imperialism.

Also on the outsider vs. insider thing, Katara being an outsider is a huge reason why it was dumb for him to refuse to teach her because she was a woman. He was imposing his culture on her. If his thinking was that Northern Tribe women don't learn combat, it should not have been an issue. And it couldn't have been because she was an outsider since he was willing to teach Aang. No, he clearly refused purely because she was a she. And that's wrong. If the heroes reacted to that wrongness with outrage (or a "tantrum,") then good for them.

[Vael]

Hmm, interesting stuff here...gotta admit, this isn't what I was expecting when I started reading this thread. That said, hope y'all don't mind me throwing in one question.

Why are you applying a model of modern-day living to a setting that obviously isn't?

[Minion]

When I said it had nothing to do with the structure of his society, I spoke poorly. I wanted to convey that his decision didn't stem from any part of his culture that had any kind of intrinsic value. Of course sexism comes from societal structure. That doesn't make it any less abhorrent. In fact, the institutionalization of prejudice makes it worse. Just because a society is a certain way does not make it OK that it is that way.

Learning a sacred martial art isn't a basic human right, but being treated like a human being first and foremost is. By refusing to teach her purely based on her gender, Pakku was transgressing against that right.

I guess that depends on how you define 'being treated like a human being.' Katara was enjoying the warm food and shelter, all the comforts and hospitality the NWT had to offer. Her basic human needs were met at no cost to her. She was offered training, just not the kind that she wanted, and she found it very useful. Again, it's a privilege. So I don't see how anyone can be wronged by being denied. By asking for training you are subjecting yourself to the judgment of the trainer.

Your arguments about the women waterbenders being happy are silly. The seeming happiness of some people in complying with societal norms does not say that those norms are good. If you go to any period in human history, you can find women happily acting within their culture's assigned roles for women. Yet for all of history, women have been oppressed and it has been really quite bad. Also, "if you don't like it, you can just leave" is, as always, one of the worst arguments that can be floated. Leaving everyone and everything you know is terrible and a terrible hardship to boot. Fighting against/to change flawed power structures is not a morally wrong choice, for an outsider or an insider.

I will conceded that. I really wasn't trying to make the argument they were better off. Separate but equal is inherently unequal.

But leaving is a terrible argument? It has no credibility? Even though it happened in canon? Leaving her life behind is exactly what Grangran Kanna did. So it shouldn't be dismissed as a viable option.

Anything that affects one of us directly affects us all indirectly, King said. I believe that. But the Avatar is supposed to be impartial and I'll never believe Aang was anything but wrong in this matter. Katara should have protested, but she could have done a much better job of it. And that is an understatement.

"Self-entitled little assholes," really? The group of children on an epic, grueling quest to save the world from a powerful, genocidal empire were "self-entitled little assholes" because they could not tactfully circumvent the sexism entrenched in northern water tribe culture?

Yes. Trying to reform a culture is not wrong, but attacking its customs and the people who practice them is. If you take it upon yourself to rebel against the customs, you do it the right way. Pakku was wrong, I think. They were also wrong. Two wrongs=/= a right.

It's hard for grown people to handle that deep seated, subtly entrenched hatred when it suddenly pops up and smacks them in the face somehow. Responding the way Katara did, with shock and rage, is kind of natural. The other realistic reaction would have been to be shocked to the point of freezing up.

Natural reaction=/=correct reaction. Yeah, I would have been gravely upset if I had spent my entire life trying to learn something with no teacher, and the guy in front of me was a master of it, but said he wouldn't teach me because of my monthlies. But Katara actually assaulted Pakku. Her reasons are right, her frustration well placed, but her conduct was dead wrong.

You keep pointing out that they're outsiders, and I disagree with that really being germane to the argument. We're talking about human rights, and they trump cultural traditions. If a culture says that people need to be treated different because they're a woman, or a certain color, or because they're ancestors made shoes for a living, that culture is wrong. I get the skittishness about being culturally imperialistic, but refusing to accept subjugation or discrimination as OK is not cultural imperialism.

It is in my view. The very claim that it is sexism seems to be a judgment. It's sexist as we define it.

Also on the outsider vs. insider thing, Katara being an outsider is a huge reason why it was dumb for him to refuse to teach her because she was a woman. He was imposing his culture on her. If his thinking was that Northern Tribe women don't learn combat, it should not have been an issue. And it couldn't have been because she was an outsider since he was willing to teach Aang. No, he clearly refused purely because she was a she. And that's wrong. If the heroes reacted to that wrongness with outrage (or a "tantrum,") then good for them.

I actually did a double take when I read that. Pakku is imposing his culture on Katara? While she is in his city? You do remember who is visiting who, right? Why would he accommodate Katara? Pakku said it was forbidden for women in the NWT to learn waterbending, not just that women from the NTW couldn't learn. If he had been visiting the South and refused to teach her, then he'd have been imposing his views.

I never said he should refuse to teach outsiders. And Aang is a citizen of all four nations as the avatar, so I'm not sure he is an outsider. As for Katara, she is from the sister tribe, so while an outsider, she is not completely foreign.

You have already proven that, tactically, it is unsound to exclude women from learning waterbennding. But on the matter of what is proper in expressing this, we will have to agree to disagree. For you the methods do not matter but I find them quite relevant.

On a completely unrelated note, since I'm speaking with Wittgen.... I actually bought a few volumes of manga recently.

[doc.exe]

I guess that depends on how you define 'being treated like a human being.' Katara was enjoying the warm food and shelter, all the comforts and hospitality the NWT had to offer. Her basic human needs were met at no cost to her. She was offered training, just not the kind that she wanted, and she found it very useful. Again, it's a privilege. So I don't see how anyone can be wronged by being denied. By asking for training you are subjecting yourself to the judgment of the trainer.

Mmmm... Let me ask you a question: If a person wants to learn a particular skill or profession and is denied not because they lack the skill to learn said proffession but because of their gender or social class or race, and the teacher specifically states that is the reason why they are being denied from learning, is that a valid judgement? Wouldn't you feel wronged if someone denied you the opportunity to learn something only because of social prejudice?

But leaving is a terrible argument? It has no credibility? Even though it happened in canon? Leaving her life behind is exactly what Grangran Kanna did. So it shouldn't be dismissed as a viable option.

As I see it, the problem is not that is not a viable solution. The problem is that is an extreme solution, something you do only when you don't really have any other options. Nobody should be subjected to that kind of things.

Yes. Trying to reform a culture is not wrong, but attacking its customs and the people who practice them is. If you take it upon yourself to rebel against the customs, you do it the right way. Pakku was wrong, I think. They were also wrong. Two wrongs=/= a right.

Natural reaction=/=correct reaction. Yeah, I would have been gravely upset if I had spent my entire life trying to learn something with no teacher, and the guy in front of me was a master of it, but said he wouldn't teach me because of my monthlies. But Katara actually assaulted Pakku. Her reasons are right, her frustration well placed, but her conduct was dead wrong.

I agree that they were acting childish and tackled the situation in a very belligerent and inapropiate manner. That being said, it bugs me that you seem to condemn their actions more than the actions of Pakku (although admittedly, from my point of view he is more in the wrong than them). Ultimately, even if you can't applaud their actions, calling them "self entitled assholes" seems too harsh.

It is in my view. The very claim that it is sexism seems to be a judgment. It's sexist as we define it.

I agree with your previous argument in that, ultimately, the people of a particular society are the ones who should change it and nobody has the right to impose his or her cultural values on them. But there are things that regardless of culture or social values are still condemnable. As I see it, any form of prejudice should be criticized whether or not it is backed up by ancient customs. That includes sexism, which is a form of discrimination that stems from prejudice against a particular gender.

And I'm sorry but I don't see how a society where women are forced to marry against their will or denied from learning a particular skill just because they are women can be called anything but sexist.

[Aldraia Dragonsong]

I have only one thing to submit to this particular argument.
The thing about calling Aang and Katara childish is that they are children. Children act childish. It happens. Now you can agree or disagree with what they did, and certainly they could have handled it better, but in my opinion, expecting them to behave like mature adults is unreasonable.

[Wittgen]

It doesn't depend on "how you define being treated like a human being." Equality is a human right. It is fundamental to any kind of fair or just system that all human beings are on the same level. Katara was turned down because she is a woman. She is being discriminated against because of an incidental fact of her birth. This is clearly wrong. Think about the modern world. No matter the country, no matter how comfortable a woman's life, would it not still be discrimination if she was denied a job simply because she's a woman. Getting a certain job or being trained by a certain someone isn't a human right, but not being denied simply because of gender is.

The argument that is so worthless it bugs the shit out of me every time I hear it is not just "leaving." It's, "If you don't like how things are, you can always just leave." OK, yeah, I guess that argument shows the current social situation is better than slavery. Who cares. Most things are better than slavery. This argument is saying that the choices are either total compliance or ejection from the system. That is a BS false choice meant to quash thoughts or habits that deviate from whatever the societal norm is. It is not an argument that says anything whatsoever about the quality of the system aside from the fact that it is better than slavery.

doc.exe really hit one of of my problems on the head here. Yes, the children were childish (and like Aldraia said, oh noes! not childish children), but their actions are not worse than Pakku's. Perpetuating a system of oppression is worse than raging against it in a less than elegant fashion. Far worse.

[Minion]

Mmmm... Let me ask you a question: If a person wants to learn a particular skill or profession and is denied not because they lack the skill to learn said proffession but because of their gender or social class or race, and the teacher specifically states that is the reason why they are being denied from learning, is that a valid judgement? Wouldn't you feel wronged if someone denied you the opportunity to learn something only because of social prejudice?

I have copious experience with this; the amount of discrimination I underwent as a child is truly mind boggling to me even as an adult. It sucks, yes. And yes, the judgment is valid. How could it not be? It's wrong, but its the established authority, independent of any other authority to oversee it. I don't understand how Pakku's judgment could be invalid when it is his decision.

When you are applying for a private school, and the headmaster/principal does not like the look of you because he suspects you have a certain ethnicity, and therefore excludes you, he's a discriminatory asshole. But he is also completely within his rights.

As I see it, the problem is not that is not a viable solution. The problem is that is an extreme solution, something you do only when you don't really have any other options. Nobody should be subjected to that kind of things

.

Tbh, we don't really know why Kanna left. Maybe she got cold feet (I apologize for that it wasn't a pun). I don't see the problem, though. If you don't like a society and aren't willing to change it, then why not leave? It kind of reminds me of The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.

I agree that they were acting childish and tackled the situation in a very belligerent and inapropiate manner. That being said, it bugs me that you seem to condemn their actions more than the actions of Pakku (although admittedly, from my point of view he is more in the wrong than them). Ultimately, even if you can't applaud their actions, calling them "self entitled assholes" seems too harsh.

Okay, I am being a bit too harsh on them.

But as I see it, they are more wrong than Pakku. Pakku was not attempting to spread his tribal ideals, which he had been raised to believe for his entire life. The kids were forcing their standards onto others. Doesn't that terrify anyone, the idea of outsiders rending a harmonious culture to their liking? Then what is to stop the NWT from imposing its societal customs onto others? Or stop anyone from imposing their customs on everyone else? Where do you draw the line? Can that question even be answered without reflecting the bias of personal customs?

It is in my view. The very claim that it is sexism seems to be a judgment. It's sexist as we define it.

I agree with your previous argument in that, ultimately, the people of a particular society are the ones who should change it and nobody has the right to impose his or her cultural values on them. But there are things that regardless of culture or social values are still condemnable. As I see it, any form of prejudice should be criticized whether or not it is backed up by ancient customs. That includes sexism, which is a form of discrimination that stems from prejudice against a particular gender.

And I'm sorry but I don't see how a society where women are forced to marry against their will or denied from learning a particular skill just because they are women can be called anything but sexist.

That's kind of my point, doc. Your mind can't conceive of a society that doesn't have the idea of sexism in it. Mine cannot either. In my mind it is sexist and I can't think of it as anything else. But that stems from the culture I was raised in. How could it be okay for us to pass judgment on another culture?

[Tempest Kitsune]

Gentlemen, while derailing is a time-honored pastime on this thread, I believe this particular track has reached a dead end. Shake hands and return to your corners, the match is over.

[LifeOfGesture]

yessssssssssssssssss

[ShonenHero]

!!!!!!!! I know I've already seen the trailer, but wooooo! I'm super excited for Legend of Korra, and its industrial era setting.

I have to ask, because it's been an argument for my friend and I:

Polarwolf or Appa, for cooler animal companion?

[MrRigger2]

I think it's an unfair comparison, at least right now. We've got three seasons of Appa being cool to work with, but the Polarwolf hasn't even had a full minute of screen time just yet. That said, I'm going to go with Appa. Because he can fly. Can Polarwolf fly? I didn't think so.

Though it will be interesting to see if the Polarwolf has any natural waterbending. Airbending has Sky Bison, Earthbending has Badger Moles, and Firebending has Dragons. Now I know that Waterbending apparently originated with the Moon, but since the other nations have bending animals, I'm wondering if now the Water Tribes do as well.

MrRigger

[ShonenHero]

I think it's an unfair comparison, at least right now. We've got three seasons of Appa being cool to work with, but the Polarwolf hasn't even had a full minute of screen time just yet. That said, I'm going to go with Appa. Because he can fly. Can Polarwolf fly? I didn't think so.

Though it will be interesting to see if the Polarwolf has any natural waterbending. Airbending has Sky Bison, Earthbending has Badger Moles, and Firebending has Dragons. Now I know that Waterbending apparently originated with the Moon, but since the other nations have bending animals, I'm wondering if now the Water Tribes do as well.

MrRigger

*copypastas arguement to friend, then waits*

[Psalm Of Fire]

Anyone else notice how definitively asian Aang looks in his statue. Watch it again. A subtle, appropriate, and satisfying jab at the movie?

Also, what animation! WOWOW! Not to mention I'm very engaged by Korra, especially the fact that she's like mid-late teens, and not a kid. And, uhhghg, I want more info!

[doc.exe]

When does this series debut again?

I have to say it: This and the new Thundercats are making me curse the fact that I don't have cable TV anymore.

[LifeOfGesture]

Mid 2012.

[Melverne]

Thanks for posting the trailer. I can't wait for this to start. The Avatar is one of the best cartoons in the last decade. Nick seriously had it together for airing this show.

PS: Skip the movie it was atrocious. The only people who seemed to like it were those that didn't watch the cartoon. My faith in the director has been shattered beyond repair. He shall now be known to me as M who?

Melverne

[Zankaru Zelladonii]

Y U NO OUT YET?!

The movie was my ultimate disappointment as movie adaptions go, it surpassed Clive Cussler's Sahara and Christopher Paolini's Eragon two of my favorite books. Walked out on sahara from the rage half-way. Eragon made me want to puke and destroy the theater simultaneously.