More like a nest of Hornets, Spence.I feel like I accidentally poked a beehive...
More like a nest of Hornets, Spence.I feel like I accidentally poked a beehive...
Mmmm.... You do realize that:
A) The ideology of "the lives of women are valuable and as such we as men must protect them" that was originally established in tribal societies was eventually twisted into the "women are naturally inferior, so we as men should rule them" patriarcal ideology that eventually took hold in most of the world and has prevailed even to our times.
B) Many ancient traditions DO have a logical and sound reason or justification for their implementation, but as time has passed, the justification for some of them has been lost due to changes in society itself. Not to mention many of them were sometimes zealously enforced only out of fanatism rather than anything else.
C) As I see it, the intented aesop of that episode was "girls should be allowed to learn whatever proffession or work they want to learn and to decide for themselves". Granted, the message could have been handled a lot better as FeatherBlade says.
On the other hand, while in the context of the story the tradition of removing women from the warrior caste could still make sense, the problem is that, in these days of movements for liberation and equity of the sexes, you can't have a kids program sending a message that could be interpreted as enforcing the aforementioned patriarcal ideology.
There's also the point to consider that the tradition has outlived it's usefulness.
It's not really a tribe anymore. That is a modern city! Tribal traditions have very little to do with it anymore. Now it's the beginning of the mentioned twisting.
Waterbending likely had a lot to do with it. It reduces the dangers of the north pole considerably, since you can control your environment to a ridiculous degree. Need to make sure the ground you walk on is safe? Ask the waterbender. If it's not? Well you have a waterbender.
As soon as waterbending became a strong factor in society the tribal culture would change rather quickly. Of course, time honered traditions wouldn't. And for the most part those still worked fine.
That doesn't mean that they are still necessary or all that valuable though.
You are separating Pakku's initial refusal to teach Katara from the structure of his society? How does that work when one is the direct cause of the other? He told them that it was forbidden in the NP for women to learn waterbending, so how is it separate? Pakku did believe that Katara needed training, just in the healing arts rather than combat. He was very rooted in his customs, but when he was lead to believe that they cost him the woman he loved, he agreed to teach Katara.Also, how does not knowing how to fight make the women safer? If women are biologically more important and thus aren't to be risked in war or whatever, fine. But war can easily come to your home, and everyone would be safer if female waterbenders also knew combat techniques. The fact is that Pakku flatly refused to train someone who needed training because she was a woman. That has nothing to do with the structure of Pakku's society. It's just sexism.
It's funny that you mention that. (I'm not about to say something snide, it really is funny). I brought this issue up in my woman's history course, the chasm this created between civil rights and woman's rights, caused by the "This hour belongs to the Negro" mentality, preached by those who felt extending the votes to black males was priority, and would be in jeopardy if women were also included.Mmmm, yes. Because the exclusion from women from being able, oh, decide who they married, or have a voice in society is so not subjugation. In fact, sexism is perfectly acceptable! Women wanting equality is simply them being whiny, they really should just be good little girls and do what their fathers and elder brothers tell them. Simply because they have a uterus and not a penis! I would say sexism and racism are equally bad on the 'caused by bigotry' scale. Wouldn't you know, women got the right to vote even after african americans! Wonder why? Because even when racism became unacceptable, sexism still was.Oh, and comparing the separation of waterbending women from warrior caste to slavery and racism...
Don't cry, okay? Or I'll start crying .Sexism is an incredibly destructive and toxic practice that is never justifiable, especially not in the instance shown in the Northern Water Tribe. That people in today's world are still trying to defend such practices makes me weep.
If a boy wanted to be a healer, and was barred from that, I would object to that as well.
If you want to argue that Aang and Katara are, as people that are clearly meant to be idealistic and bring a viewpoint of equality and harmony to places that have customs that conflict with those, and that there is some struggle as a result, then fine, go ahead. But do not pretend that breaking a custom that subjugates half or more of the population is 'wrong'.
That part I put in bold? I've got a big problem with that. (Of course that other stuff is appalling...)Okay, hey, I remembered something, and it's relevant to the argument of 'how dare they poopoo the Northern Water Tribe's cultural traditions'.
Last year I had several classes with a young woman from Kyrgyzstan. It came up that there was a legitimate concern that she would be abducted and forced into marriage.
I mean, what? Kidnapped and forced into marriage? But it turns out that there was a long history of such practices in the region, and, under the Soviet Union, the practice was outlawed. Since the country regained sovereignty, the practice has reemerged, as a way of 'embracing' the culture that they had been stripped of under SU rule.
Link for those interested.
So yes, a certain degree of respect for a culture is necessary, of course it is! But if it's clearly harmful and subjecting a group of people, then no, it's not acceptable, and it should be rectified! Doing so isn't an attack on the culture, it's an an attempt to address basic human rights!
However, remember that this a show targeted at children, and the message that 'injustice should be faced down and rectified, even when it's difficult' was quite clearly the message. The idea that subjugation and such practices are, and should be considered 'acceptable' simply because the practice has been perpetuated throughout many generations is abhorrent and not something you want to teach your children.
In the case of Avatar: TLA, it could easily be seen as the duty of the Avatar to rectify social injustice in the attempt to bring everyone closer to harmony and peace.
I guess that depends on how you define 'being treated like a human being.' Katara was enjoying the warm food and shelter, all the comforts and hospitality the NWT had to offer. Her basic human needs were met at no cost to her. She was offered training, just not the kind that she wanted, and she found it very useful. Again, it's a privilege. So I don't see how anyone can be wronged by being denied. By asking for training you are subjecting yourself to the judgment of the trainer.When I said it had nothing to do with the structure of his society, I spoke poorly. I wanted to convey that his decision didn't stem from any part of his culture that had any kind of intrinsic value. Of course sexism comes from societal structure. That doesn't make it any less abhorrent. In fact, the institutionalization of prejudice makes it worse. Just because a society is a certain way does not make it OK that it is that way.
Learning a sacred martial art isn't a basic human right, but being treated like a human being first and foremost is. By refusing to teach her purely based on her gender, Pakku was transgressing against that right.
I will conceded that. I really wasn't trying to make the argument they were better off. Separate but equal is inherently unequal.Your arguments about the women waterbenders being happy are silly. The seeming happiness of some people in complying with societal norms does not say that those norms are good. If you go to any period in human history, you can find women happily acting within their culture's assigned roles for women. Yet for all of history, women have been oppressed and it has been really quite bad. Also, "if you don't like it, you can just leave" is, as always, one of the worst arguments that can be floated. Leaving everyone and everything you know is terrible and a terrible hardship to boot. Fighting against/to change flawed power structures is not a morally wrong choice, for an outsider or an insider.
Yes. Trying to reform a culture is not wrong, but attacking its customs and the people who practice them is. If you take it upon yourself to rebel against the customs, you do it the right way. Pakku was wrong, I think. They were also wrong. Two wrongs=/= a right."Self-entitled little assholes," really? The group of children on an epic, grueling quest to save the world from a powerful, genocidal empire were "self-entitled little assholes" because they could not tactfully circumvent the sexism entrenched in northern water tribe culture?
Natural reaction=/=correct reaction. Yeah, I would have been gravely upset if I had spent my entire life trying to learn something with no teacher, and the guy in front of me was a master of it, but said he wouldn't teach me because of my monthlies. But Katara actually assaulted Pakku. Her reasons are right, her frustration well placed, but her conduct was dead wrong.It's hard for grown people to handle that deep seated, subtly entrenched hatred when it suddenly pops up and smacks them in the face somehow. Responding the way Katara did, with shock and rage, is kind of natural. The other realistic reaction would have been to be shocked to the point of freezing up.
It is in my view. The very claim that it is sexism seems to be a judgment. It's sexist as we define it.You keep pointing out that they're outsiders, and I disagree with that really being germane to the argument. We're talking about human rights, and they trump cultural traditions. If a culture says that people need to be treated different because they're a woman, or a certain color, or because they're ancestors made shoes for a living, that culture is wrong. I get the skittishness about being culturally imperialistic, but refusing to accept subjugation or discrimination as OK is not cultural imperialism.
I actually did a double take when I read that. Pakku is imposing his culture on Katara? While she is in his city? You do remember who is visiting who, right? Why would he accommodate Katara? Pakku said it was forbidden for women in the NWT to learn waterbending, not just that women from the NTW couldn't learn. If he had been visiting the South and refused to teach her, then he'd have been imposing his views.Also on the outsider vs. insider thing, Katara being an outsider is a huge reason why it was dumb for him to refuse to teach her because she was a woman. He was imposing his culture on her. If his thinking was that Northern Tribe women don't learn combat, it should not have been an issue. And it couldn't have been because she was an outsider since he was willing to teach Aang. No, he clearly refused purely because she was a she. And that's wrong. If the heroes reacted to that wrongness with outrage (or a "tantrum,") then good for them.
Mmmm... Let me ask you a question: If a person wants to learn a particular skill or profession and is denied not because they lack the skill to learn said proffession but because of their gender or social class or race, and the teacher specifically states that is the reason why they are being denied from learning, is that a valid judgement? Wouldn't you feel wronged if someone denied you the opportunity to learn something only because of social prejudice?I guess that depends on how you define 'being treated like a human being.' Katara was enjoying the warm food and shelter, all the comforts and hospitality the NWT had to offer. Her basic human needs were met at no cost to her. She was offered training, just not the kind that she wanted, and she found it very useful. Again, it's a privilege. So I don't see how anyone can be wronged by being denied. By asking for training you are subjecting yourself to the judgment of the trainer.
As I see it, the problem is not that is not a viable solution. The problem is that is an extreme solution, something you do only when you don't really have any other options. Nobody should be subjected to that kind of things.But leaving is a terrible argument? It has no credibility? Even though it happened in canon? Leaving her life behind is exactly what Grangran Kanna did. So it shouldn't be dismissed as a viable option.
Yes. Trying to reform a culture is not wrong, but attacking its customs and the people who practice them is. If you take it upon yourself to rebel against the customs, you do it the right way. Pakku was wrong, I think. They were also wrong. Two wrongs=/= a right.
I agree that they were acting childish and tackled the situation in a very belligerent and inapropiate manner. That being said, it bugs me that you seem to condemn their actions more than the actions of Pakku (although admittedly, from my point of view he is more in the wrong than them). Ultimately, even if you can't applaud their actions, calling them "self entitled assholes" seems too harsh.Natural reaction=/=correct reaction. Yeah, I would have been gravely upset if I had spent my entire life trying to learn something with no teacher, and the guy in front of me was a master of it, but said he wouldn't teach me because of my monthlies. But Katara actually assaulted Pakku. Her reasons are right, her frustration well placed, but her conduct was dead wrong.
I agree with your previous argument in that, ultimately, the people of a particular society are the ones who should change it and nobody has the right to impose his or her cultural values on them. But there are things that regardless of culture or social values are still condemnable. As I see it, any form of prejudice should be criticized whether or not it is backed up by ancient customs. That includes sexism, which is a form of discrimination that stems from prejudice against a particular gender.It is in my view. The very claim that it is sexism seems to be a judgment. It's sexist as we define it.
I have copious experience with this; the amount of discrimination I underwent as a child is truly mind boggling to me even as an adult. It sucks, yes. And yes, the judgment is valid. How could it not be? It's wrong, but its the established authority, independent of any other authority to oversee it. I don't understand how Pakku's judgment could be invalid when it is his decision.Mmmm... Let me ask you a question: If a person wants to learn a particular skill or profession and is denied not because they lack the skill to learn said proffession but because of their gender or social class or race, and the teacher specifically states that is the reason why they are being denied from learning, is that a valid judgement? Wouldn't you feel wronged if someone denied you the opportunity to learn something only because of social prejudice?
.As I see it, the problem is not that is not a viable solution. The problem is that is an extreme solution, something you do only when you don't really have any other options. Nobody should be subjected to that kind of things
Okay, I am being a bit too harsh on them.I agree that they were acting childish and tackled the situation in a very belligerent and inapropiate manner. That being said, it bugs me that you seem to condemn their actions more than the actions of Pakku (although admittedly, from my point of view he is more in the wrong than them). Ultimately, even if you can't applaud their actions, calling them "self entitled assholes" seems too harsh.
It is in my view. The very claim that it is sexism seems to be a judgment. It's sexist as we define it.
That's kind of my point, doc. Your mind can't conceive of a society that doesn't have the idea of sexism in it. Mine cannot either. In my mind it is sexist and I can't think of it as anything else. But that stems from the culture I was raised in. How could it be okay for us to pass judgment on another culture?I agree with your previous argument in that, ultimately, the people of a particular society are the ones who should change it and nobody has the right to impose his or her cultural values on them. But there are things that regardless of culture or social values are still condemnable. As I see it, any form of prejudice should be criticized whether or not it is backed up by ancient customs. That includes sexism, which is a form of discrimination that stems from prejudice against a particular gender.
And I'm sorry but I don't see how a society where women are forced to marry against their will or denied from learning a particular skill just because they are women can be called anything but sexist.
*copypastas arguement to friend, then waits*I think it's an unfair comparison, at least right now. We've got three seasons of Appa being cool to work with, but the Polarwolf hasn't even had a full minute of screen time just yet. That said, I'm going to go with Appa. Because he can fly. Can Polarwolf fly? I didn't think so.
Though it will be interesting to see if the Polarwolf has any natural waterbending. Airbending has Sky Bison, Earthbending has Badger Moles, and Firebending has Dragons. Now I know that Waterbending apparently originated with the Moon, but since the other nations have bending animals, I'm wondering if now the Water Tribes do as well.
MrRigger
Y U NO OUT YET?!
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