For the Emperor

[Zankaru Zelladonii]

[Phht]

You know what faction should get an "Ultramarines buff"? Imperial Guard.



Though to be totally honest, I don't see me really getting into WH40k. It seems unrealistically grimdark for no reason other than wanting grimdark.

[SLAMU]

That's partially because only the wartorn and scary parts get covered. For every planet beset by Xenos, Heretics, and Mutants the bad guys, there are a score of functional worlds being prosperous and peaceful. Kinda like you get the image that the world is falling apart watching the news, instead of going outside and talking to the mailman once in a while.

...okay, maybe not any mailmen I've met, but you get my drift. Look at alot of the other places in the multiverse, like Warcraft's Azaroth or the Marvel/DCverses. Things in 40k just tend to be a bit gribblier. And soul consuming. And morally grey.

[Satori]

WH40k is depressing in that the Imperium is slowly, very slowly, but steadily losing.

But as Slamu said, there are plenty of places in it where things are actually pretty good. Though if you give it another 2,000 years...

WH40K is as Over-the-Top!Comic or Grimdark as you choose to make it. The cannon is fluid. There's plenty of room for happy stories in the setting, if that's what you want.

[Phht]

WH40k is depressing in that the Imperium is slowly, very slowly, but steadily losing.

This is a major sticking point.

They don't seem to colonize new worlds, they exterminate entire worlds when needed to eliminate Chaos, they don't get along with anyone else except when opposing Chaos and some times not even then, they haven't seemed to introduce any new weaponry in at least a few thousand years if not longer, they're totally at ease with executing people for the smallest infractions... and yet part of them are the main marketing part of the entire universe.

Just about anything can cause you to fall to Chaos it seems, it seemingly corrupts everything, and yet it's not steamrolling the galaxy. Probably due to the efforts of the Ultrasmurfs kicking ass galaxy wide to hold back the tide of death trying to drown out the Imperium. ;)



The entire galaxy seems to have just stalled due to the Horus Heresy and refuses to advance plot at all. All the interesting stuff in the universe is back story. Would it kill GW to do some plot advancement (I know the answer is probably "yes") as opposed to rewriting bits of canon every couple years via new edition codices?

[Dervon]

The series suffers from TREMENDOUS overuse of hyperbolization on any number of topics. Fans have argued that Exterminatus-ing planets, lack of co-operation with semi-friendly xenos and ease of falling to chaos are all things that get played up by fluff writers but are actually far more low-key in the actual day-to-day running of the setting. I believe one amusing fan-post was someone showing the economic, manpower and strategic stupidity inherit in the practice of Exterminatus, and why it probably happens less often then we think.

Also, Chaos is inherently fractionate and divided unto itself. It is rather interesting that the one place where the writers have show restraint is in allowing for leaders of Chaos that can get an Undivided crusade going. There are very few of them, and they tend to fail spectacularly because Chaos doesn't play well with Chaos.

100% Truth on the post-Heresy stagnation, sadly. I think it's because GW feel like they've written themselves into a corner: sure, everything LOOKS like it's going to hell, but overall there is a nice status-quo. If humanity gains even an irkling of it's former glory it would steam-roll everything else in the setting. And yes, it would kill them, because GW <3 $$$$. Players always react to changes in fluff negatively regardless of the change, so why risk the money?

I hate GW. They the storytelling corporate version of Kishimoto: creators of something awesome that most of the time can't figure out how to USE their awesome stuff...

[Zankaru Zelladonii]

I don't think it is grimdark just for the hell of it, most of the factions seem pretty reasonable to me. The eldar consider most other races little better than animals, which considering their history is not surprising. Orks are orky because of genetics. Tyranids 'are' animals ruled by instinct. Chaos is literal chaos, it is just not in it's nature to band together and conquer the universe. Then you have the imperium of man which is exactly what would happen to humanity if someone like hitler become immortal and had god-like powers. (Which in my growing cynicism seems like the only way humanity would ever truly unite.)

I agree with not liking the whole 'humanity has already reached industrial perfection but lost the knowledge' bit.

[Dervon]

Two comments:

Orks - Not official fluuuuuufffffff! Yeah, technically everything from Xenobiology hasn't been accepted as 100% super special GW canon, but then again neither is something like 80% of the actual setting. You'd be surprised how little is actual GW-endorsed fluff.

Then you have the imperium of man which is exactly what would happen to humanity if someone like hitler become immortal and had god-like powers. (Which in my growing cynicism seems like the only way humanity would ever truly unite.)

Whoa there buck-o, technically the God Emperor was as far away from being a fascist as humanly possible. Authoritarian yes, but in his days humanity was secular, technologically comfortable and on the apex of reaching it's next evolutionary step. Virtually EVERYTHING that we equate with Grink-Dark came AFTER his fall. Humanity had it good in his time.

[Phht]

I hate GW. They the storytelling corporate version of Kishimoto: creators of something awesome that most of the time can't figure out how to USE their awesome stuff...

I had an idea that GW should sorta "reboot" the 'verse by releasing pre-Horus Heresy stuff so you have two settings to choose from for tabletop gaming, and have con gaming events and the like that progress plot along. Then a year or more after starting that, have the Horus Heresy occur, and have events and settings that take place during that. Then after the plot flow of the Heresy concludes after a few years, we have the immediate post-Heresy setting with changes occurring due to the fallout. This would provide 3-4 distinct areas of play with different equipment sets and rules and the like for people to play in, 10+ years of new content for fans to lap up, and it'd also be good for WH40k RPG stuff. ;)

Heck, pre- and during-Horus Heresy stuff would be like an entirely different culture for the Imperium. Primarchs out leading Marine legions, no Golden Throne, nor much of the stuff that's become "standard" parts of the Imperium's running.... Then post-Heresy would start to see those things coming into being and getting introduced into the game, and changing over time as they grow and evolve towards their original WH40k form.

So you'd have WH40k Great Crusade for pre-Heresy gaming, WH40k Heresy for Horus Heresy gaming, maybe WH40k Dark Ages for post-Heresy gaming, and the original WH40k for omgwtfmillennium later gaming.

[Stormseed]

What if, during one of the occasional gaming events, something happens like the loyalists blowing up Horus at Istvaan?

[SLAMU]

Good question. I think that they wouldn't play Istivaan, or at least not in any scope that could derail their cannon. I'm ignoring their past with respect to canon and its stability, let's be generous here.

I'd imagine that they'd throw planets into a random name generator and say "Round one, FIGHT!" before they'd actively try and derail canon like that. Dervon, don't say a thing.

Nice idea though. Assuming that Horus died, or was otherwise indesposed, how would the Heresy go from there? Would it just fall apart? Would another leader step up and assume the mantle of leadership? I doubt that the Emprah would waffle about smacking down any of his other sons that turned against him.

[Phht]

You get the joy of the GW going "oh fuck."

If they're smart, they'd design the Primarchs in such a way during the Great Crusade period that having them on the field with their specific legion forces provides stat bonuses both ways (and rules for ambushes, etc) so that, going into it, it's not likely for the "friendlies" to survive very intact. Or the player forces end up engaged with the edges of the enemy forces and not able to make it to the hostile Primarch elsewhere on the overall "battlefield."

Though, from what I see of the events at the massacre, they're pretty much screwed. They get hit at their landing zone, lose a Primarch to the enemy, and fall back towards their reserve forces, that then open up on them. The Loyalists are in a crossfire and get pressed on both sides. So not likely that any player force would manage to successfully go out in a blaze of glory engaging and killing Horus. ;)

--

More importantly than an early elimination of Horus, what if they had a tabletop gaming event of the final battle of the Heresy and players managed to keep the Emperor from being mortally wounded by Horus?

[Stormseed]

The Loyalists are in a crossfire and get pressed on both sides. So not likely that any player force would manage to successfully go out in a blaze of glory engaging and killing Horus. ;)

I must say that I would enjoy seeing some beleaguered SM captain attempting a death or glory charge and running over Horus with a Rhino.

More importantly than an early elimination of Horus, what if they had a tabletop gaming event of the final battle of the Heresy and players managed to keep the Emperor from being mortally wounded by Horus?

I think that would be really difficult to implement with the fluff as it is, tho.

[utahjak]

I have a love/hate relationship with all facets of Warhammer 40k.

I love the idea of the setting and some of the concepts. I love the game portion of Warhammer 40k. There are some very cool things in the setting.

I hate how the background is a slave to game balance. The prices aren't an endearing feature either.

I do love me some Tyrainds though. I'm an addict, I admit it. Now if you excuse me, I have five hundred Gaunts and a dozen Tyranid Warriors to paint.

[Phht]

Okay, played through most of Dawn of War II campaign (trying to decide whether to save what assets I can while getting more terminator armor, or hit Last Stand).

Why aren't the Tyrannids rampaging throughout the galaxy? They sound (and look) Zerg-ish, have a hive mind, rapid birth, and can overwhelm just about any force with sheer numbers... and yet they aren't really impacting the galaxy any?



This setting is starting to annoy me as I learn more about it. The Imperium could steamroll everyone else... if the Emperor wasn't stuck in the Golden Throne. The forces of Chaos ought to steamroll everyone, except they can't really work together long enough to do so. Tyrannids are nigh-unstoppable masses of death that scours worlds clean of life as they progress... and yet they only seem to show up randomly. ARGH.

[Random_fan]

From what I've heard the Tyrannids have actually conquered other galaxies and have only just found out about this one, apparently what's been seen in our galaxy amounts to a scouting party, so basically they don't have control of the galaxy because they haven't tried to get control of it. Of course someone with more knowledge can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Stormseed]

Yes, it's theorized that the bulk of the Tyranid force hasn't arrived yet, which is particularly worrying because one tendril almost ate Macragge.

[Phht]

Okay, that makes a bit more sense (regarding Tyrannids).

Though now I have to wonder... when the main Tyrannid force shows up (never gonna happen, I know), wouldn't that cause a radical shift in wh40k? Because they're a threat to (nearly) every faction, so wouldn't that eventually force the various groups to put aside their issues temporarily to defeat the common, overwhelming foe?

Which leaves me with the interesting mental image of a combined force battling on one tabletop battefield against Tyrannids, with Chaos Marines battling next to Eldar, Orks fighting alongside Imperial Guard, Daemonettes slaughtering next to Sisters of Battle....

[spudman]

I think you'd need to keep Chaos and Imperium forces away from each other, and don't let the Eldar near Slaanesh and hir ilk unless you want the space elves to be devoured (though the idea has merit... ).

[Phht]

Went back and played through the Dawn of War campaign, most of Winter Assault (goddamn Ultramarines don't know how to sit back and let me clear out a base, and instead roll their Land Raider full of Titan crew right into the enemy and get killed), and nearly completed the Guard version of Dark Crusade.

Does it actually happen with any sort of frequency that two (or three) branches of the Imperium clash with each other due to their orders conflicting in fluff/canon? I mean, in Dark Crusade (and presumably similar situation in Soulstorm), we have Guard vs Marines because the Marines want to purge the planet and the Guard want to secure and hold it, and both sides claim to be in the right due to their orders. They're both fucking human factions, why not ally together while comm-ing their bosses to have each group's bosses hash out with the others who gets to carry out their orders?


The Baneblade is pure awesome. Divine gift from the Emperor to his favored military force. ;)

[Tempest Kitsune]

The Marines don't think of themselves as "mere" humans anymore. Living that long will do that to you. Thus they tend to look down on the Guardsmen. And then you've got the Commisars. The less said about those psychotic fucks, the better. They wouldn't want to wait for something as inane as "confirmation of orders", they'd start shooting men until their orders are carried out. And their orders are generally along the lines of "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword!"

[AshBellringer]

"YOU WILL SERVE YOUR EMPEROR OR YOU WILL SERVE ON THE FIRING LINE!"

"FEAR ME! BUT -FOLLOW-!"

"I WILL HAVE SOMEONES HEAD FOR THIS!"

"FOR ACTS OF COWARDICE, YOU ARE TO BE EXECUTED IMMEDIATELY, SCUM!!"

-Just some of the wonderful lines that Commisars are so FOND of shouting.

[Phht]

If the computer games weren't so much fun, I think I'd hate this setting.

[AshBellringer]

But Phht. That's the whole point:

It's Grim-Dark, cranked to 11 and then infused with Angst, SPHEZ MARIENZ, Chaos, Hate, Evil, Death, Destruction, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and the overall impending doom of 'Everything is FUCKED'.

There is hope. Well, not for anyone living -now-, but the Farseer and the Eldar have forseen a possible 'future' for the Universe at large.

They're just not going to reach it for a good long while. And not before a few thousand-so years of death and destruction has taken place...

[jgkitarel]

To answer your questions about the conflicts of orders between the Astartes and the Guard, it happens more often than many would think. Then when you throw in the Sisters of Battle, as in Soulstorm, you have a major problem. They cooperate more often than not, but all three groups have fought each other due to conflicts in orders.

Also, playing through DoWII: Chaos Rising, you begin to learn of a few issues within the Blood Ravens Chapter.


There is a good piece of fluff I once had (and sadly no longer in print) which covered a lot of the background of the 40K-verse and why their technology stagnated. Would you believe that it was from lack of maintenance of the original sources, the Standard Template Constructs (STC)? All of their warfare technology, save for some of the Naval Technology is based off of adaptations of civilian equipment that was retooled for war. Add in the Adeptus Mechanicus, which controls what technological knowledge there is, their dogmatic worship of it (save for the more renegade elements) and belief that their tech is perfect, and you would have a hard time improving it.

The Mechanicus does improve Imperial Tech, but due to how much was lost due to the above mentioned poor maintenance, the Imperium is slowly rebuilding over 20,000 years to technical development. Ironically, their critical infrastructure is probably the most advanced aspect of Imperial Technology.

Oh, and Exterminatus is carried out a lot more rarely than most of the readily available material would make you think. All who have that authority have to eventually justify their actions, or they will have a very short life expectancy. Of all the factions, the Astartes are the least willing to carry it out, largely due to the fact that they will be judged by their fellow commanders, chapter masters, the Inquisition, etc.