Ships capable of Stargate travel

Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Comosicus » April 4th, 2012, 4:26 am

Hi guys,

I was hunting a rabid plot bunny for my HP/SG1 fiction and I was trying to come with a non-capital ship able to travel through Stargates. So far from canon we have three examples that I am aware of: Gateships / Puddle Jumpers, Wraith Darts and the Needle Threader variant of Death Glider.

My idea was something like Darth Vader's TIE Advanced X1 / TIE interceptor, where the solar panels / radiators / whatever-they-are normally hug the hull, then extend their pilons into normal position (like the sublight engines of gateships).

Are there any other examples of such ships in the multiverse that would be capable of Stargate travel? Pics would be appreciated.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Phht » April 4th, 2012, 12:40 pm

The only ones I can think of capable of gate travel are the three you mentioned. A partial check of starships on the Stargate wiki doesn't point to any others either.

Though I would suggest not having any folding/sliding parts that makes the craft equal to or wider than a gate's diameter. Wouldn't want something to fail and cause the craft to stick partway through the gate, right? :)
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Comosicus » April 4th, 2012, 1:27 pm

The only ones I can think of capable of gate travel are the three you mentioned. A partial check of starships on the Stargate wiki doesn't point to any others either.

Though I would suggest not having any folding/sliding parts that makes the craft equal to or wider than a gate's diameter. Wouldn't want something to fail and cause the craft to stick partway through the gate, right? :)
I'm talking about ships from everywhere else: other series, anime, books. For the galactic part, after the Voldemort issue is solved, I want Harry to have access to a small fighter/bomber sized craft, capable of gate travel, while having enough of a punch to stand toe to toe with a normal Hatak. I don't want to give him a full size warship from the start. While gateships can destroy Goau'ld Hatak's due to their drone armament, they are transport and exploration vessels, with their only defense being the cloak.

As for the last part: the Ancients had no problems implementing that design in their gateships. The incident with the stuck engine port in SG:Atlantis is the exception, not the norm.

EDIT: What I really mean with this thread is that at some point I will have Harry build himself a ship, with Ancient technology, using one of the examples as a model.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby bookwurm290 » April 4th, 2012, 6:46 pm

Well, my first thought was the A-wing from Star Wars. I googled size and found this rather long description of why the offical size makes no sense with diagrams.

http://tpkc-klick.com/swda/index.php?op ... &Itemid=56
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Comosicus » April 5th, 2012, 12:53 am

Wow! By those calculations, the A wing is the size of my car, just a bit wider. Still, it fits with extra space inside the ~4.6m diameter of the stargate.

There was one solution that I've seen in "Oma's choice" (a great crossover btw: ) where Harry has his ship "phased out" in a pocket dimension (that story's explanation for magical shrinking) until it is small enough to fit through the gate. I don't want to copy that solution so I'm left with a variable geometry ship.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Wittgen » April 5th, 2012, 1:32 am

Ships capable of Stargate travel? Off the top of my head, Carter/O'Neill and Daniel/Dr. Who.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Comosicus » April 5th, 2012, 2:25 am

Ships capable of Stargate travel? Off the top of my head, Carter/O'Neill and Daniel/Dr. Who.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby someone » April 5th, 2012, 8:25 am

I'd say your best bet is a customized Puddle Jumper.

They have just about the most efficient volume/size ratio that you can have in a 'gate capable ship and you can put a shield generator + ZPM/NIE/UFTG in the cargo hold to give it near invulnerability, add a (presumably scaled down) Asgard beam or other DEW instead of some drones (or just add another weapon bay to a similar design) and you have reusable firepower.

Anything fighter sized that has to stand up to a Ha'tak probably needs a ZPM/Ancient shielding in any case.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Comosicus » April 5th, 2012, 9:07 am

I'd say your best bet is a customized Puddle Jumper.

They have just about the most efficient volume/size ratio that you can have in a 'gate capable ship and you can put a shield generator + ZPM/NIE/UFTG in the cargo hold to give it near invulnerability, add a (presumably scaled down) Asgard beam or other DEW instead of some drones (or just add another weapon bay to a similar design) and you have reusable firepower.

Anything fighter sized that has to stand up to a Ha'tak probably needs a ZPM/Ancient shielding in any case.
I was getting close to the same conclusion myself. I was browsing DeviantArt and while I did encounter a few interesting designs, everything else was full of intricate wings/fins/panels and other assorted parts that don't match well with gate travel.

What are NIE and UFTG ? DEW I presume is Direct Energy Weapon.

I don't remember expansion charms / pocket dimensions to be used in regards to internal space in spaceships. One could get several time the internal volume of the ship, allowing for enough space for extra generators, ammunition, cargo area, crew quarters in a ship the size of a gateship. Even allowing for the supposition that engines, weapons and hyperdrive need to be outside the pocket space to function, I don't see what can stop you to put the generator inside the pocket dimension and drag the powerlines through the entrance.

Or replace the lockers in the cargo area with magic trunks like Mad Eye had - instant cargo space.

Oh, the possibilities.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby someone » April 5th, 2012, 12:22 pm

NIE = Nutrino Ion Engine (Asgard), UFTG = Unified Filed Theory Generator (Tollan, official name not given in the series).
DEW is indeed Directed Energy Weapon.

I think the whole magic/electronics thing might cause some trouble when trying to expand the size of a spaceship, especially when actually keeping the two sides connected, but if it doesn't, why would Harry ever even consider using a larger ship if he can get capital ship level armament on a fighter sized ship (considering your comment about that in the OP). In any case competent use of magic or competent use of Stargate resources already equals curbstomp, combining them is just silly.

Aerodynamics don't really matter if you have a space fighter, which makes the Puddle Jumper design not bad for combat (against Ha'taks) at all.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Comosicus » April 5th, 2012, 3:14 pm

I am trying to keep to a certain "realistic" level if we can say that about SF. There are limits about how much stuff you can fit into a ship that size and I want to, at least, provide a plausible reason for jumping the horse. Also I want to provide a reason why this is a crossover, not an Stargate AU with a pilot named Harry Potter. So I want to mix elements from both universes. Up to one point magic can be replaced by Ancient/Asgard technology, but I want to go beyond that point.

I don't recall the canon version of "magic and muggle electronics don't mix" thing. If we describe magic as the natural ability to manipulate Zero Point Energy (like I've seen it done in Oma's choice), then Alteran technology, that uses that type of energy frequently should have no interference issues or can be shielded from the effects.

For gateship capabilities I am using this page from Stargate Wikia: http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Gateship

Gateship hyperdrive was installed by half-ascended McKay, but with huge energy requirements (ZPM). Most probably it is not intergalactic either. They were also working on adapting Asgard Plasma Beams for gateships, but never got too far. Plus that the Tau'ri got these weapons only at the end of season 10.

Drone capacity is somewhere between 6 and a dozen. After depleting the supply there are no other weapons. It would need at least two more weapon systems: one for taking on capital ships and one for smaller crafts (Death Gliders, Alkesh's, Wraith Darts). Also IIRC the maneuverability of a Gateship is not that great.

Cloaking system can act as a shield in emergency cases, but with huge drain of power. You can't run both at the same time. Cloak and shield means installing a second shield generator.

No hyperdrive means you are severely limited in terms of reach - especially considering how easy is to block stargate travel (burying, shields).

All this extra technology needs space to install, power to juice it up and a way to leech all the extra heat it should generate (last part can be optional if we assume there is already the technology to do it). While modifying existing gateships is one option (at least at the beginning), later on it makes more sense to develop a different craft. Plus this would give me the occasion to add elements from other 'verses. Let's consider my first idea of a TIE Advanced-like craft as the result of Harry watching the Star Wars movies at some point and using them for inspiration.


Also I was wondering if it would be better to have the story follow only Harry or to allow jumps from other points of view. Second choice would mean that I would also have to maintain (at least for a while) a secondary arc by keeping the reader up to date with the evolution of things in the Wizarding World. First choice would allow me to focus on a single arc and introduce the changes at the time Harry and Sirius get up to date. I am stuck already trying to describe the aftermath of the DoM battle, as my first two approaches don't flow well enough.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Atharyn » April 5th, 2012, 5:12 pm

I believe it is in the first Harry Potter book where Hermione states that magic and technology don't get along very well at Hogwarts.

(Personally I think this is bull, as both Diagon Alley and the Ministry are in the middle of a metropolis. If they had a "murphyonic" field, a la the Dresden-verse, wizard-kind would have been discovered quite a while ago. Still - it is a cannon comment that Rowling never actually explored.)

As for jumping the horse - your concerns regarding space are quite valid. However, Harry could get access to space-enlarging charms or runic arrays. Note I don't suggest this or even say it should work well. I think it would be an interesting (and non-lethal) way to insert into the story early that magic and tech don't always work the way you would expect.

If I enlarged parts of a house with copper wiring for electricity, what does that do to the wiring? Does it stretch? Are the contact points even in the same place before and after? And that's just a house. With something as involved as a jumper I could see the entire thing just failing (those massively redundant safety systems that the Ancients built into just about everything) because it has a "fault" somewhere. Harry could try it for a few weeks or months then scrap it.

Now, as for the "going beyond" technology have you considered just adding magic to existing solutions? One of the problems that the Taur'ri had throughout Stargate SG-1 was having their nifty, gate-busting, massively over powered nuclear missiles getting shot down as they tried to hit their targets. Disillusionment charms would be a nifty stealth capability.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby MrRigger2 » April 5th, 2012, 5:22 pm

Actually, I remember the "muggle tech doesn't work in Hogwarts" from Goblet of Fire. It's brought up because they're wondering how Rita Skeeter kept getting her stories, and someone mentions electronic bugging, which is summarily dismissed as an option.

Personally, I don't see there being anything inherent about wizards and magic being Murphyonic, like in the Dresden Files, as there are no comments about Harry blowing out the Dursley's TV or light bulbs with his mere presence.

Rather, it's the high concentration of Magic in Hogwarts that makes it shut down electronics. Not just a lot of wizards living there, but the thousand years of magic and wards. Further, I make the location specific to why electronics shut down. I have Hogwarts sit on the intersection between three major leylines (which isn't an accident), and have that be the reason why everything goes wonky there. I also have it act similarly to the Bermuda Triangle.

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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Comosicus » April 6th, 2012, 3:30 am

Personally I think that space-expanding charms/runic arrays, like the ones used to make Moody's trunk, are nothing more than opening a doorway to a pocket dimension, whose interior is shaped by the will of the caster. So basically the normal trunk interior still exists in normal space, you just can't access it anymore, because the entrance of the trunk became the doorway to the pocket dimension. As long as the doorway can be kept open I see no reason why they can not coexist with high level technology. Wizards travel with such trunks via Floo, apparition or portkey so the existence of such an object inside a Gateship should not interact with, let's say, hyperspace travel.

Make custom lockers, that fit in the space above the benches in the cargo compartment or remove some benches completely. Expand their interior the same way Moody's trunk is and you have a lot of extra space to fit a lot of extra stuff. If you can keep the doorway open indefinitely, I see no reason why you can not relocate voluminous equipment inside this space and connect it into normal space. The same way people pass seamlessly through the trunk entrance, the same way you can pass power conduits, data conduits and so on. Make one such trunk able to fit with the drone storage unit and you can fit a lot more ammo than what is normally possible.

Maybe I should change the title of the thread, as it moved more towards interactions between HP magic and SG technology.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby guyfonderball » April 27th, 2012, 8:58 am

My prefered explanation why electronics don't work in Hogwarts is that Hogwarts has been intentionally warded against them around the time they became widely used, to prevent it from being discovered. That would explain why they don't work there, but have no problems in London despite there being several magic locations. Those are simply hidden through other means.

As for the original Topic, the Wing Commander Series has several ships that could work with some minor modification. A P-64E Super Ferret (A light fighter) should be able to fit through a StarGate, and a simple redesign (folding the wings back) should prevent accidents. (they can't act as a hook then) The F-86C Hellcat V (good All-Arounder) or F-66B Thunderbolt VII (Heavy Fighter) should also be able to fit, though you may have/want to make either a bit more narrow. And if you want pure firepower, thats where the F/A-76A Longbow, a Torpedo Bomber, comes into play.

Those are the ships I think are the most likely to fit through a SG with only slight alterations, but maybe I overlooked one. It seems that most of the Federation Fighters could work. Don't bother with Kilrathi Fighters though. The only one I could see fit is the Paktahn, and that one looks kinda ugly in my opinion.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Comosicus » April 27th, 2012, 9:36 am

Thanks for the suggestions. I was not aware of these ships, as I never played Wing Commander. I know it's blasphemy, but I got my first computer pretty late and the access to games in Romania at that time was quite difficult.

I was thinking more about Freespace2 fighters, as I know them better. In fact, with the Vasudans having their ships named after Ancient Egypt figures, one could use those designs for advanced Goau'ld ships.

I have a 4 day extended weekend ahead of me and maybe, among other things that I need to finish, I might manage to put the story a bit further.
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Re: Ships capable of Stargate travel

Unread postby Comosicus » May 22nd, 2012, 3:51 pm

I've seen this design tonight with the latest update on EVE and I absolutely love it. If the side nacelles would be retractable, I think the entire shape would fit through a Stargate.

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Fit an Asgard NIG into it and it should be able to power up a good hyperdrive, shields, beam weapons and at least a dozen drones (a gateship has 6 to 12 without any problems).
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