The Avengers (spoilers)

The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby doc.exe » May 6th, 2012, 8:57 pm

Well, I think some of the forumites have already seen it, so why not discuss it with more detail here.

Zankaru called it the best Marvel movie done so far and I agree with him. In my humble opinion, it's one of the finest summer blockbusters ever made.

I have never been a fan of Joss Whedon (I have to admit I have not watched yet Firefly or Dollhouse, but I never liked Buffy or Angel that much, and his work in Astonishing X-men didn’t impress me), but I have to admit he did quite a good job here. His trademark humor is present but, outside of a few bits, I didn’t found it distracting. Indeed, the humor bits are quite well timed and genuinely funny.

As I said in the Random Insanity thread, the plot is not really original or complex: Loki wants to conquer the Earth and is trying to summon an alien army to do so, the Avengers must stop him while also learning to work together (and not killing each other in the process). It’s pretty much standard formula, but I think the simple set-up works in the movie’s favor, especially considering it not only achieves the monumental task of linking all the previous franchises of the Marvel movieverse, but also advances the character arc of all the protagonists in a meaningful way.

And well, while all the characters get their share of moments of awesome, I think Hulk was the one who benefited the most. While Edward Norton did a great job in the Incredible Hulk, I think Mark Ruffalo surpassed him here, this is probably the best interpretation of the character in cinema so far. My favorite part was when he one-shots the Leviathan just after explaining the truth of his situation to the other characters. It gave me the chills.

The part with Agent Coulson was also quite touching. Now, I doubt he is truthfully dead, what with Nick Fury and his standard modus operandi. But even if we don’t see him again in the sequels, his farewell was quite appropriate.

On the antagonists side, Loki is way more dastardly here than in Thor, where he was more of a tragic villain. It was a bit puzzling at first, but I think it works better this way, as it helps to portray him as a genuine menace to the team. And you can still see some of his resentment and inner turmoil from Thor, if only a few times.

As to the Chitauri, they don’t really inspire the same sense of creepiness and dread that the versions from the Ultimate comics do (seriously, if you think the Skrulls are bad in the 616 universe, you have to read the 1st maxiseries of the Ultimates. Calling them a race of complete monsters would probably be a compliment). Here, they are pretty much the equivalent of faceless mooks, but even then, they still come as truly dangerous, and you can see how the Avengers could have been underwhelmed eventually.

And the revelation in the stinger… :want: Oh! The sequel is going to be quite interesting indeed.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby LifeOfGesture » May 6th, 2012, 9:02 pm

Joss Whedon is a goddamn serial killer.

Now that I've got that out of my system, Mark Ruffalo's Bruce Banner was terrific and I am so excited they're doing a Black Widow movie.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby spudman » May 6th, 2012, 9:12 pm

Joss Whedon is a goddamn serial killer.
Yes, yes he is. But that's partly why we love him. The *@$tard.

Coulson... :TT_TT:

That was Thanos, during the credits, right?

For me this movie lived up to all of the hype.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby bookwurm290 » May 6th, 2012, 9:17 pm

I'd have to agree that this was the best Marvel movie yet. It hit all the right notes, funny action packed and true to all the characters. I have yet to see anyone who doesn't like the movie and unless you just don't like superheroes I don't see how you couldn't enjoy it.

I also thought that the Hulk stole the show every time he was onscreen, but you have to love Iron Man and his refusal to take anything seriously. I think my favorite moment was when Hulk and THor had just killed a Leviathan and Hulk punches Thor with a smirk.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » May 6th, 2012, 10:58 pm

My favorite part was right when they finally started clicking together

Stark: Call it, Captain.
Cap: All right listen up. Until we can close that portal up there, what we need is containment. Barton, I want you on that roof, eyes on everything. Call out patterns and strays. Stark, you've got the perimeter. Anything gets more than three blocks out, you turn it back or you turn it to ash.
Hawkeye: Want to give me a lift?
Stark: Right. Better clench up, Legolas.
Cap: Thor, you've gotta try and bottleneck that portal, slow them down. You've got the lightning; light the bastards up.
[to Natasha]
Cap: You and me, we stay here on the ground, keep the fighting here, and Hulk?
[Hulk looks down at Cap. Cap raises a single finger]
"Smash."
[Hulk grins]

my second favorite part was when Banner showed up for the big fight and a Leviathan is bearing down on them:

Cap: Doc... I think now is the perfect time for you to get angry.
Banner: That's my secret Cap, I'm always angry.
"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Random_fan » May 6th, 2012, 11:15 pm

My favourite part was Hulk beating up Loki, never has a final confrontation been so funny. A close second is everything Tony Stark said.
I am so excited they're doing a Black Widow movie.
They are, when was this announced? I'm excited for this as well but I think it's the new Hulk that's really got my attention, and I really didn't care for the character before this movie.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby LifeOfGesture » May 6th, 2012, 11:58 pm

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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Random_fan » May 7th, 2012, 12:34 am

The fact it'll be a prequel makes me so happy, I came out of the film wanting a story focusing on her history.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Farmer_10 » May 7th, 2012, 4:29 am

Multiple points:

-I didn't really get what the issue was with SHIELD building Tessaract-derived weaponry. I understand that jerking around with it is what brought the Chitauri to earth, but aren't they also proof that earth needs to amp up its arsenal?

-You guys think they're gonna introduce any more heroes, like Giant-man or the Wasp, Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers version or the original) or at least more War Machine, or just focus on these six?

- :TT_TT: I already said this but: I liked Coulson.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Random_fan » May 7th, 2012, 4:39 am

There's an ant man movie in production so hopefully that means we'll be getting him and wasp, and maybe vision, in the team.

I'm pretty sure everyone liked Coulson.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby LifeOfGesture » May 7th, 2012, 4:51 am

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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Random_fan » May 7th, 2012, 5:39 am

i admit as unlikely as that is if that was true I would have no problems with it because it would mean Coulson was alive.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Zankaru Zelladonii » May 7th, 2012, 9:05 am

As a browncoat I urge you to check out firefly. I did not enjoy buffy, angel, although there were quite a few good parts, and I did not bother with dollhouse after the first few episodes, but firefly is a shining jewel in the scifi genre. Just make sure you watch the series in it's proper order. It was shown on fox out of episodal order because that was such a great idea (damn fox!) which was a big reason it got canceled after one season.

I agree about the hulk's super punch being the best moment of the movie, the hulk/ruffalo dominated the screen everytime he was on and with an actor like downey jr. that is no small feat. It took directors making huge mistakes (notably the Hulk 2003) and many changing of actors, but someone finally got the Hulk right in my opinion. Ruffalo did a great job.

I was kind of nervous about hawkeye due to no previous knowledge about him, but I liked the character's non-stop professionalism and badass-ness.


Fraking thanos man. Thanos! I was expecting it after that gauntlet everyone was thinking was the Infinity Glove back at some convention last year, but when I heard the line, "it would be like.... courting death." I wanted to start cheering in the theater.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » May 7th, 2012, 10:28 am

An interesting theory on Loki's state of mind during the movie.

http://missisjoker.tumblr.com/post/2257 ... n-avengers
"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby doc.exe » May 7th, 2012, 5:21 pm

My favorite part was right when they finally started clicking together

Stark: Call it, Captain.
Cap: All right listen up. Until we can close that portal up there, what we need is containment. Barton, I want you on that roof, eyes on everything. Call out patterns and strays. Stark, you've got the perimeter. Anything gets more than three blocks out, you turn it back or you turn it to ash.
Hawkeye: Want to give me a lift?
Stark: Right. Better clench up, Legolas.
Cap: Thor, you've gotta try and bottleneck that portal, slow them down. You've got the lightning; light the bastards up.
[to Natasha]
Cap: You and me, we stay here on the ground, keep the fighting here, and Hulk?
[Hulk looks down at Cap. Cap raises a single finger]
"Smash."
[Hulk grins]
Curiously, this was my second favorite part.
Multiple points:
-I didn't really get what the issue was with SHIELD building Tessaract-derived weaponry. I understand that jerking around with it is what brought the Chitauri to earth, but aren't they also proof that earth needs to amp up its arsenal?
I think that was a callback to some themes and subplots from Ironman 2, Captain America and Incredible Hulk. Specifically: "Someone invents, discovers or finds this incredibly advanced technology/unlimited power source/super serum. Said thing falls in the wrong hands (or is reverse engineered by the wrong hands) and is then used for nefarious purposes."

After what happened with Vanko copying the Ironman suit techology, the nazi super weapons of HYDRA, and the supersoldier experiments that lead to the creation of Hulk and the Abomination... well, Nick Fury raised a valid point, but it's understandable why Stark, Cap and Banner would still be pissed off at the idea.

Interestingly, even Fury seemed less enthusiastic about the super weapons idea and more confident in the Avengers initiative.
Seems very unlikely, but I would not have a problem with it.

On this matter: In the comics, wasn't the Vision created with the brain patterns of Wonderman when he was thought to be dead (or comatose, I don't remember exactly)? It would not be the same as he being alive exactly, but they could do something similar with Coulson and Vision for the movieverse.
As a browncoat I urge you to check out firefly. I did not enjoy buffy, angel, although there were quite a few good parts, and I did not bother with dollhouse after the first few episodes, but firefly is a shining jewel in the scifi genre. Just make sure you watch the series in it's proper order. It was shown on fox out of episodal order because that was such a great idea (damn fox!) which was a big reason it got canceled after one season.
Curiously, I have been interested in watching Firefly for a while, but I always get sidetracked by something else. One of these days though.
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » May 7th, 2012, 5:29 pm

I think that was a callback to some themes and subplots from Ironman 2, Captain America and Incredible Hulk. Specifically: "Someone invents, discovers or finds this incredibly advanced technology/unlimited power source/super serum. Said thing falls in the wrong hands (or is reverse engineered by the wrong hands) and is then used for nefarious purposes."

After what happened with Vanko copying the Ironman suit techology, the nazi super weapons of HYDRA, and the supersoldier experiments that lead to the creation of Hulk and the Abomination... well, Nick Fury raised a valid point, but it's understandable why Stark, Cap and Banner would still be pissed off at the idea.

Interestingly, even Fury seemed less enthusiastic about the super weapons idea and more confident in the Avengers initiative.
Regarding the Avenger's Initiative, I think Fury's main reason for preferring it over Phase Two is that weapons don't have a conscience, and therefore, won't care who uses them. But a team of people? People who have suffered, have gone through the flame and come out the other side tempered and hardened? They may get turned, like Barton did, but in the end, there's a much better chance that they'll flip back and be that much more committed to the Good Fight after their conscription by the bad guys.
"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
— Captain America

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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby MrRigger2 » May 7th, 2012, 11:03 pm

Good gravy, I saw this movie today, and it was so worth it. Excellent movie, excellent. I definitely think Hulk beating Loki like a drum was my favorite part. I kept wanting to see the rest of the team split off to deal with Loki, and leave Hulk to deal with the army, but having it done the other way around was even better, I think.

Coulson will be missed. He was alright in the other films, but he really came into his own here. Not that I'm particularly convinced he's actually dead.

Whenever Maria Hill/Colbie Smothers was onscreen, I kept hearing Bob Saget say "Kids, in the summer of 2012, your Aunt Robin became an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D..."

Mark Ruffalo did an excellent job as Bruce Banner. Really pulled it off and held his own against the other presences onscreen.

The scene during the credits was great, though I'm surprised they're willing to open a can of worms as big as Thanos. There's a lot of room to screw that one up.

The reason Fury seemed more confident of the Avengers Initiative is seen in a line earlier in the film. The Council are pushing for Phase Two to be put in place, but Fury says it's soldiers that win wars. He knows the weapons aren't the thing that win wars (though they help), it's the people fighting them. Also, Nick Fury is Genre Savvy enough to know protagonists when he sees them.

Such a great movie, I'm honestly tempted to go see it again so I can try to pick out things I missed the first time around.

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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby Minion » May 8th, 2012, 5:31 pm

I usually don't go to theaters (last time was Kung Fu Panda 2), but all this raving has me considering this movie. Does it matter that I haven't seen any of the ones that build up to it?
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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby MrRigger2 » May 8th, 2012, 5:44 pm

It isn't strictly necessary to understand the movie, especially if you know the basics of the characters, but the movie definitely gains a lot from the preceding movies. They do a satisfactory job of covering the salient points of the previous films, but the character arcs are definitely a lot more solid if you've seen the other movies.

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Re: The Avengers (spoilers)

Unread postby spudman » May 9th, 2012, 12:04 am

On this matter: In the comics, wasn't the Vision created with the brain patterns of Wonderman when he was thought to be dead (or comatose, I don't remember exactly)? It would not be the same as he being alive exactly, but they could do something similar with Coulson and Vision for the movieverse.

.
If Coulson isn't brought back, flesh and blood, then this is a fantastic idea.
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