The Dresden Files discussion thread

The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Aldraia Dragonsong » January 3rd, 2013, 1:02 pm

Since there seem to be quite a few readers of this series around the forum.
WARNING! THERE WILL BE SPOILERS! LOTS AND LOTS OF SPOILERS!

That said, which book is your favorite?
I think I liked Turn Coat or White Night the best. The most recent novel, while generally well-written, did not really suck me in until about the last third, and it was quite a bit darker than I really like.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Wittgen » January 3rd, 2013, 1:55 pm

I think the mystery aspect was better earlier on. Early in the series, Butcher would juggle a bunch of different things at once around a fairly easy to solve mystery. But since the juggling was so good and the mystery had just the right amount of heft, you could lose yourself reading and then get a really satisfying, "Of course that's what happened" moment at the end. That kind of fizzled out somewhere. The latest book, it was positively painful watching Dresden catch up. A powerful figure told him straight up that huge shit went down the night of Bianca's party, and apparently Dresden has never bothered to sit down and review what he knows about the party. I know conservation of detail gives us readers an advantage, but still, he is an investigator. It's not too much to ask that the knife would have at least been on his radar. Dresden deserved to lose this last book, the idiot.

The last book was also painful in terms of portrayals of women and the out of place homophobia. As serbii pointed out on another thread, the long, boring, not at all hot but quite eye-rolling descriptions of various supernatural women's hotness is tiring at best. Add in the winter mantle, and ugh. Not the best the series has done.

My favorite book might be Changes, just for pure roller coasterosity.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Aldraia Dragonsong » January 3rd, 2013, 3:03 pm

Yes, I think the mysteries were better-handled in earlier books; this one was a little... messily done, and hard to understand in spots.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I did not really notice the descriptions of the attractiveness, but that might have been because I read it in several spaced-out sessions instead of in one shot. The Winter Mantle business was kind of unpleasant to read, though - I found the constant descriptions of Dresden lusting after various females far more wearing than the descriptions of their attractiveness. Not the best in the series, I have to agree. Not the worst, but not the best.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Farmer_10 » January 3rd, 2013, 6:01 pm

You could make the argument that it was the Winter Mantle itself making Harry see everything in sexy-vision.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby gamebrain89 » January 3rd, 2013, 6:18 pm

It's already been shown messing with him, so it very well could be.

Also, Harry's a red-blooded human male in the Land of the Mystically Attractive. What do you expect? He's a Wizard, not a Buddhist Monk. The book was written in the first person as well, and we're seeing his thought process as he struggles not to let impulses like that control him. It's consistent characterization, and while it could have been dropped to the background a bit more, I don't have a problem with it.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby MrRigger2 » January 3rd, 2013, 6:26 pm

It was partly that, absolutely. It increased his urges several times over, but he's always been like that. Even earlier in the series, Harry has always been overly observant of the physical features of certain women. For instance, Harry being so turned on he has to pour ice water down his pants after meeting Maeve and Jenny Greenteeth for the first time, or pretty much any description of Lara Raith (most commonly described as sex on legs). And the all too common descriptions of Molly as being All Grown Up, followed quickly by "But I could never do that, I've known her since she was a child, and she's Michael's daughter".

Now granted, this is very consistent characterization across the novels, and one of Harry's character flaws (he's a bit of a hornball, even if he doesn't act on it), and consistent characterization is a good thing. However, this doesn't stop it from getting a bit annoying after a while, especially with the ramp up it took in Cold Days due to the influence of the Mantle of the Winter Knight.

Changing topics slightly, does anyone care to make any predictions as to what's going to happen in the coming books? If things follow the pattern they've been following (every five books so far), Nicodemus and the Denarians are scheduled to make an appearance. Given that Word of God says that Nicodemus is both alive and fears Harry (as he feared Shiro, in his first appearance, Harry was toyed with, Shiro's death was ordered the second he heard he was near), I think Nicodemus is going to lose a lot of his Affably Evil persona and focus more on not confronting Harry, and when the confrontation is ultimately forced, he'll focus on dispatching Harry as fast as possible, or escaping, depending on how is plans have gone up to that point.

Of course, if the Nickelheads do show up, you know what that's going to mean, right? Xanatos Speed Chess.

Also, I want to see what Harry is going to be capable of after he's reconstructed his gear, both from using a different source of material (previous staves have come from Ebenezer's farm, this one is going to come from Demonreach), and after his crash course in raw manipulation of magic Mab's physical therapy.

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EDIT: Halfway ninja'd by Game.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby serbii » January 3rd, 2013, 7:52 pm

You could make the argument that it was the Winter Mantle itself making Harry see everything in sexy-vision.
No. For one, it's a consistent character trait of his, which is one of the reasons I generally dislike when he's interacting with the fairy courts or Lara Raith's posse. If hotness is around, it will be described in detail, when lots of hotness is around the detail will be excruciating.

Also no, because it's a problem of the writing as much as Dresden.

This isn't a problem of character. This is a problem of writing. It always happened. It was never this grating.
And now it's rapey as well.
You can say, 'yes, it's the mantle' but it's the author who's deciding what to write, what it does, and yeah it's delicate ground, but it could be pulled off probably. He's doing it poorly in my opinion and the writing is coming off as adolescent. Also him not jumping a girl had "look, this character is such a good person for not being a rapist" vibes in my opinion.
I have a friend who was fine with the books, read them all up to this happily enough, and found this one offensive.

Making it a character trait is fine, but you have to write it well. People give so much shit for for example, Bella in Twilight constantly, and repetitively describing how hot Edward is. It's a character trait he's hot, and that she notices. No one would say it's well written. Flipping the genders and putting it in a more well written in general series does not make it ok. It's still annoying.
May get ranted at for bringing twilight into this, but that's honestly the first thing I associated this book when I thought "ok, this thing is making way to big a deal of how hot everyone is"

Harry is a "Red blooded man" yes, maybe, and lo I loath that term and what people use it to justify in fiction and real life. That is ok for a character, but in my opinion, this is about the writing more than the character. You can write a guy with libido and not have it be eye roll worthy after the second chapter.
And the all too common descriptions of Molly as being All Grown Up, followed quickly by "But I could never do that, I've known her since she was a child, and she's Michael's daughter".
Every f'ing book with slight variations on her type of mature hotness.
Personally I think Molly would be a better character if she wasn't so attractive, and was more normal. It seems to detract from her if every time we see her she's described as how her hotness has shifted from this variety to another.

Unrelated, Sarissa really should have been introduced in a previous book, even in passing. Maybe she was and I just didn't notice but she really should have been Chekhov's replacement earlier.

Heh, I read so many of the books so long ago. Mmm best books... Changes for changes I guess. Turn Coat maybe? I liked seeing more of the wizard side of things and society. Actually in terms of future things I'd like to hear more about Margaret le Fay.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Farmer_10 » January 3rd, 2013, 9:13 pm

Ok, from a reading perspective it did get old eventually.

Moving on:

Rigs has a point. The Nickelheads are due for another shot at Harry. And since Butcher's made it a habit to mix-n-match his rouges gallery, who would be the B-plot? The White Court? Or maybe the Black Court. Mavra's long overdue for another appearance, especially since the last time we saw her she walked away with the Word of Kemmler. She's had years to experiment with that thing. That'll be worth seeing.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby gman391 » January 3rd, 2013, 9:25 pm

I kind of want to see Chicago cleansed of the Falmor.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby MrRigger2 » January 3rd, 2013, 9:57 pm

Mavra is certainly long overdue for an appearance, though Harry gave her one hell of a threat last time she showed up. Given he's only been getting stronger, she's got reason to believe he would follow through, and she didn't get to be as old as she has by being stupid or taking unnecessary risks. If she was going to make a move, I think she would have moved while Harry was dead. However, given that he killed the entire Red Court, I doubt any vampire of any stripe going to be anxious to go against him. Especially now that attacking him means attacking a member of the Winter Court. Granted, there's going to be those that won't care, but I'm not sure Mavra will be one of them. However, if he is able to discard the Mantle of the Winter Knight as Kringle implies, she may make a move then. Butcher may have her hold off until a lot of the readers have forgotten about her, as he did with Corpsetaker (different situation, but there's precedent), then have her make her move. After all, she has all the time in the world.

Once she does show up, however, it'll be awesome. Same thing with Ferrovax.

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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Farmer_10 » January 4th, 2013, 8:12 am

I wonder if he got Nemesis'd at Bianca's party too.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby MrRigger2 » January 4th, 2013, 12:25 pm

If he didn't, he's almost certainly a part of the Black Council. However, with the revelation of Nemesis, it could be that every member of the Black Council has been taken over by Nemesis. In fact, that's probably likely.

Ooh, what if the Black Council is actually fighting Nemesis? I don't think it's likely, in fact I think the opposite is true, but if they are fighting Nemesis, that would lead to some very cool Enemy Mine situations. Harry and Cowl pulling Back to Back Badasses anyone?

One last thing that I've been thinking on is the nature of Nemesis. Personally, I think he's a Walker, just like He Who Walks Behind and He Who Walks Before, but Nemesis is He Who Walks Within. Does that make sense to anyone else, or am I alone here?

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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby jgkitarel » January 4th, 2013, 9:50 pm

You guys are making me want to read it, so I may actually pick up the series once everything is straightened out for me...

May be a couple of months, though.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Aldraia Dragonsong » January 4th, 2013, 10:47 pm

There might not even be a Black Council, it could all be the work of Nemesis.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby MrRigger2 » January 4th, 2013, 11:34 pm

What I'm thinking is that Nemesis likely controls all the members of the Black Council, thus making the Black Council redundant (assuming Nemesis operates on a Hive Mind), except for making Harry and others like him (prior to Harry finding out about Nemesis) believe they have beaten the bad guy, when it fact they haven't done anything but taken out the Big Bad's mind-controlled pawns.

Hmm, I'm remembering a comment from Morgan, and the official stance of the Merlin. There is no Black Council. Morgan said that there was no Black Council because if there was, the White Council would appear divided, and that would make them look weak in the eyes of the rest of the Supernatural world, which, given that the rest of the Supernatural world is nearly all predators who eat humans, would be a bad thing. Now, this is a perfectly good answer for why the Merlin is taking the position of "There is no Black Council", but it could also be that the Merlin knows that Nemesis is behind the Black Council, and that the Black Council is merely a front for the real enemy.

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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Aldraia Dragonsong » January 23rd, 2013, 5:46 pm

Oh. Oh sweet mercies.
Remember in Turn Coat, when it turned out that there was a mind-affecting substance in the ink of official Council documents and it had been affecting everyone's judgement?
What if that substance was Nemesis?
There is no Black Council... because the White Council is the Black Council. Nemesis has them all.

In unrelated thoughts, I really wonder what that parasite in Harry's head is.
...Could it be Lash?
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby MrRigger2 » January 23rd, 2013, 6:37 pm

Yes, Lash being the parasite is the most common theory I've seen so far. And given the new scope of Harry's problems, he may need the additional power/insight she can provide him.

As for the ink being Nemesis, it's an interesting theory, but I don't think the evidence supports it. Peabody's ink was able to affect everybody differently, based on their age, mental resistance, and exposure. The youngest members were implanted with serious commands and blatant controls, while the oldest members were more subtly manipulated, with no such implanted commands. Given how much exposure the Senior Council had, if it was possible, Peabody would have controlled them. If it were Nemesis, they could have been dominated, because as badass as the Senior Council is, they aren't quite the same as a Faerie Queen, and Nemesis was able to control Maeve (and Lea, who is supposed be nearly as powerful as Mab).

So, while it's a good theory, and I think Nemesis was ultimately behind the plot, and I find it likely that a number of White Council members are subverted, I don't think Nemesis was directly involved.

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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Minion » January 25th, 2013, 9:09 pm

I also noticed the prominence of Male Gaze throughout all the books, but became more difficulty for it not to take me out of the story when Lara got the exact same introduction for the 4th time.

Interestingly though, Harry also notices good looking men, most prominently his own brother! Maybe it's all deep seeded self-image/confidence issues. Or maybe it's tied to his mother issues.


Now, I have only read up to Turn Coat (though I am aware of some spoilers beyond), but I have to say my favorite book thus far is Dead Beat, by a long shot. I don't know what it was, maybe the pacing and the plethora of enemies. Cowl definitely helped, being my favorite villain in the series. Also refreshing that for what seemed like the first time in a while, the main antagonists weren't vampires. It's a little strange because I like Murphy but she was hardly in this one.

This was just my favorite... even before we met Sue.

And immediately after was what felt like my least favorite, Proven Guilty, which seemed like a letdown on most levels. Didn't really like the plot and the final boss wasn't very inspired.

I do tend to read the books in bulk...
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby serbii » January 27th, 2013, 5:26 am

I think Harry noticing Thomas is more a Thomas thing than Harry, it's a way of attracting prey and well, Harry is a human.
Also for some reason all the female vampires are bi BUT THEY GUY ONES NEVER SLEEP WITH OTHER GUYS BECAUSE THAT IS NOT COOL FOR SOME REASON AND WE CAN'T HAVE THAT, BUT THE OPPOSITE IS TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE AND SEXY COUGHCOUGHCOUGH. [/not happy with you for that Butcher]
Because apparently raping your daughters is acceptably evil, but bisexual men are just icky so only the girls of the species do that.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Atharyn » January 27th, 2013, 1:48 pm

Regarding "orientation" - there are a lot of female characters that play to the "two girls is hot" stereotype. Maeve when she is first introduced, for example. Not all of the are vampires. Most importantly Dresden has received lots of offers and heard lots of rumors. He hasn't taken any of those offers or followed up on the rumors. Ever.

Given that it is the Dresden-verse and "things get worse" seems to be the motto of the entire universe I'd err on the side of "they are just trying to trick any guy they can into becoming food" because to most of them humans ARE food. They are, to quote Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "Happy Meals with legs." They are predators and they've figured out what works to take down prey.

Why do you think Dresden tends to treat "attempted seduction" as "attempted assassination" so often?
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Minion » January 27th, 2013, 4:46 pm

It's kind of meta, Serbii. And circular

Lord Raith's preference for women spilled over to the porn industry,which he controlled, and saturated culture. It might b Butcher poking at the fourth wall there as Raith's influence would therefore affect HIM as well.

And Harry notices when any guy looks good. Like their abs and stuff. As far back as the werewolf in Fool Moon (Loup Garrou?)
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby serbii » January 27th, 2013, 7:56 pm

It just pisses me off how against all logic, Thomas and his father are straight, while all the sucubii you see (save maybe Inari) are bi. They prey via sex, they should all be bi.
It feels like a double standard he made all the females in that situation bisexual and all the males there straight. There's no good reason why.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Minion » January 27th, 2013, 8:09 pm

Of course it's a double standard! What else could society be built on?

It's not necessarily illogical that Thomas and his dad are straight. It's just that we don't see any bi male vampires that makes their preference a preference, rather than the default.

I agree anyway, but maybe Butcher is simply a product of his time? Or he doesn't filter his personal tastes for the book. I'm sure he didn't grow up thinking about bi guys.

Do you think the world is more dangerous to Harry with or without bi male vamps (which I shall from now on abbreviate and bmv)?
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby Greybane » January 28th, 2013, 4:17 pm

Keep in mind that there isn't a high number of male Raith vamps. Thomas and his dad. The rest have been killed. Which means that, statistically, the chances are that neither would be gay. There isn't a third one to fill in that role I suppose you could say.

With the female Raiths, once again I want to mention that they are predators. Successful ones. Girl on girl, or the idea of it, is attractive to may males, so why wouldn't intelligent and most of all cunning predators make use of it? Distraction at critical times with innuendo and the ability to "inspire supernatural levels of wood" could be very helpful in getting a few more meat-bags, or at least their life energy. Play the role enough and it could be integrated into your personality. May have happened for some of the bi-lady vamps. Others could just be continuing the role. Some might honestly be bisexual or lesbian (and using males as an act).

Now with Thomas and the King, there are offsetting conditions. Thomas doesn't want to be a predator (or didn't earlier in the series). He actively attempted to not hunt anything with legs, meaning he wasn't trying to acquire as many sexual partners as possible. He knew what he wanted (Justine).

The White King on the other hand, had the power that he didn't need to use cunning tricks. He simply could take what he wanted. He didn't want any males (though I doubt he never experimented in a rather long life). Later on, he could influence the porn industry to his tastes, making picking up future prey easier.
Odd that. It actually worked.
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Re: The Dresden Files discussion thread

Unread postby serbii » January 28th, 2013, 10:46 pm

Keep in mind that there isn't a high number of male Raith vamps. Thomas and his dad. The rest have been killed. Which means that, statistically, the chances are that neither would be gay.
I strongly disagree. If anything them being the 'royal' family so to speak they should be more likely, rather than less, to be bisexual, as it's not about sexuality, it's about being a predator. It's like only eating female cows.
Girl on girl, or the idea of it, is attractive to may males, so why wouldn't intelligent and most of all cunning predators make use of it?
Why wouldn't you do the reverse? Male-on-male is attractive to many women (have you not seen the size of yaoi fandoms?). You want to attract all possible prey don't you? And they're plenty attractive without needing to go the extra mile to attract guys. They sleep with girls to feed on girls, not to attract guys.

I don't have a problem with the girls being bisexual, I have a problem with only the girls being bisexual when the only reason seems to be author appeal/squick.

And the justifications feel like clutching at straws, it's the double standard rearing it's ugly head. You shouldn't need to make excuses and guess at backstory, that should be sign enough there is an issue.
Did he do it maliciously or even deliberately? No, probably not.
Am I going to go on a psychofemnazi crusade? No, and I really hate to have to argue about these things, and I would hope you know me well enough to know I am not the sort of girl who thinks all men are deliberately out to oppress women.
I just want it to be noticed, instead of pretending like this is totally a-ok no problem.
I enjoy the books, yeah, I'm not going to stop reading, and there's nothing wrong with having a guy protagonist who likes and notices women. But the double standard is in them, not to a HUGE extent, but it's there, as in many places, and maybe if I point it out I'll mentally be labelled a crazy feminist, or brushed off, but I sort of hope it just means other people will notice it more, and maybe decide it's not ok. And when they're writing something, or commenting on something, or whatever else, they'll do their little bit to make the double standard go away.
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