A Little Help?

[MrRigger2]

My friend just recently convinced me to start Gaming with him (though really, that wasn't hard), and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions or tips to make my game more enjoyable. I would ask my friend, but he's being unusually tight-lipped, presumably to let me figure it out on my own. Don't get me wrong, I want to do that, but I also want to avoid any situations where I'd cause a bunch of rocks to fall just because I screwed up something that's "common knowledge".

Just for reference, he's running a Werewolf The Forsaken game with us, and he started me on rolling up a D&D 3.5 character this afternoon.

MrRigger

[Tempest Kitsune]

Hmmm, that's not a good sign. When I first started gaming, Matt, Lindsey, Joe, Torbin and Brian all pretty much had to guide me by the hand, and even then I ended up making lots of mistakes. Is your friend at least giving you reference books to look at?

[Barbarian]

Loot all the bodies. Always. Even when it seems innapropriate.

[MrRigger2]

Hmmm, that's not a good sign. When I first started gaming, Matt, Lindsey, Joe, Torbin and Brian all pretty much had to guide me by the hand, and even then I ended up making lots of mistakes. Is your friend at least giving you reference books to look at?

Oh yeah, I've got the books. And it's not as if he's completely clammed up about things, but he's not going into his usual depth of explanation. He's explaining the process of character creation to me, but not going into a lot of detail that he normally goes into. For instance, I'm to the point of buying equipment for my Gnome Rogue, and other than telling me that I need to buy Thief Tools in addition to a weapon and armor, he pretty much left me on my own. Things like that.

MrRigger

[Greybane]

Hmmm, that's not a good sign. When I first started gaming, Matt, Lindsey, Joe, Torbin and Brian all pretty much had to guide me by the hand, and even then I ended up making lots of mistakes. Is your friend at least giving you reference books to look at?

Oh yeah, I've got the books. And it's not as if he's completely clammed up about things, but he's not going into his usual depth of explanation. He's explaining the process of character creation to me, but not going into a lot of detail that he normally goes into. For instance, I'm to the point of buying equipment for my Gnome Rogue, and other than telling me that I need to buy Thief Tools in addition to a weapon and armor, he pretty much left me on my own. Things like that.

MrRigger

I went with halfling rogue. Favored class, higher Dex, bonuses to some skills...

Always buy rope. A lamp and oil as well. My rogue carries a hidden dagger, and invests highly in the bluff and sleight of hand skills.

[Phht]

It could be that he's being tight-lipped so he doesn't accidentally reveal campaign information he shouldn't. Any splatbook restrictions?

You could always ask about, say, climate information. It'd be silly if you had a character in the desert that had no desert survival stuff to help him get there, or a character in the far north without proper clothing or the like. Plus for the most part you can't really fuck up on equipment unless there's essential gear for a climate that you don't get because you weren't told about said climate. A dagger (or short sword) or twelve, some good armor that has a low armor check penalty with high max dex and decent defense, 251 thief tools, maybe a shortbow or crossbow along with a pile of ammo for it, maybe a crowbar, backpack, 10ft pole, rope, grappling hook, waterskin, etc. But some of it depends on how much your DM wants you to obey the rules regarding, say, food or weight.

NEVER FORGET to check above you in dungeons and the like. Most people think of the floor or walls are places traps or enemies can come from, but oozes and spiders, among other things, can be on the ceiling. It's often stated that one can tell a veteran D&Der from a newb by seeing who looks up for stuff while in a dungeon. Also, veteran D&Ders tend to have long poles to poke suspicious things with.

[MrRigger2]

Yeah, I bought a 10 ft. pole straight off. Unless I'm misremembering a conversation, my friend has played Tomb of Horrors, so I can pretty well expect the ceilings to be out to get me.

MrRigger

[SLAMU]

What are your stats? Partially, equipment is going to be based on stats. Also, who else will be allong?

If you're going to be dealing with people alot, good charisma is nice. Wisdom too, although I don't think that you'd be doing alot of wisdom-intensive things as a rouge.

Hmmm. Bring along about a pound of candy or so, for bribing the little ones. (although be careful with this, as my DM once turned this back on me, by giving a cavern full of Kobalds that we bribed passage with Haste Due To Sugar Rush when they ambushed us later. Their CR was insane.)

Mostly, don't play dumb, because DMs love to catch players doing dumb things and turn it around on them. Always keep the big picture in mind, too.

Alchemy dodads are nice, buy some smokers or flashbangs if you can. I also enjoyed using poison, although since (I presume) you are going to be playing a good charachter (instead of a NE Drow wizard ) there may be alignment penalties for this. Ask da boss.

Don't forget skill points. Think about what kind of charachter you are playing, then invest accordingly. I'm guessing that you've got something like a cat burgalar with a big nose, so lots of climb, move silently, search, etc. Also, take advantage of any racial bonuses that you might have. Gnomes have "Speak with burrowing animals" right? Does it have prerquisits? Does it work on Dwarves? (Really, ask that. You never know.)

Read the 1001 things Mr. Welsh is Not Allowed to Do in an RPG. There should be a link to it on the forum somewhere. It might have some suggestions.

HAVE FUN. Don't get too worked up over anything. Don't be afraid to be zany and off the wall.

Anything else?

[Dervon]

Dervon's Eloquen/tg/uy tips & tricks:

Steal from your party. Tell them it is "in character".

..

But seriously, does the party contain a Paladin? Paladin Interaction 101: Create a situation where he has to choose between the lesser of two evils. Because all Paladins must fall. (False statement, but some cliches are central to the game.)

Alternatively: Trip the Paladin. Tell him he just "fell".

...

Addendum to what Barbarian said above: Decapitate all corpses you come across, even the ones your party generates through combat. Claim you are doing this to "Prevent Zombies". Bonus points if the DM inflicts zombies upon the party if you ever stop.

...

You know about Immovable Rods? Get one, then convince the DM it has a "Universal Stand-Still"-point, thus turning it into the most lethal weapon ever conceived. Bonus points if the DM realizes that he has given you a doomsday device AFTER green-lighting it.

...

Only works if you have a bearded party-member (preferably a Dwarf) and a frail party-member (preferably an Elf). Once your sneak-related skills are high enough, sneak into the bearded one's room, shave beard. Save it. Then glue it to the face of the frail one. Bonus points if you can pull this off without anyone but the DM being wise about it.

...

If your DM EVER mentions there being a Gazebo in a park or some such, announce you are rolling initiative. Bonus points if you can get everyone to believe you thought it was a monster of some sort.

...

:D

[SLAMU]

...are you looting ideas from Knights of the Dinner Table, good sir? I approve.

Refer to any weapons shops as "Bloodbath and Beyond", even if it's something like "Blue Jack's Maces and Stabby-thingies Emporium"

If you ever find an axe, refer to it as your Choppa. Pester people about your ideas to make it "Choppier." No. Wait. That's something for the Orc Barbarian. Hmmm. Steal things. Try to steal everything that isn't nailed down and on fire. If its just nailed down, first steal the nails.

Use your slight of hand tricks to put "Smite Me, O Mighty Smighter!" on the Paladin's back.

Quote Monty Python. It isn't a real session until someone brings up A) swallows, with regards to cocoanuts, B)The Inquisition, whom we expect to arrive around dinnertime, C) Self-defence against fruit, D) the Silly Walk, E) The Castle of Aaarrrggghhhh!!! and/or that damned rabbit.
On a related not, refer to the spellcaster as Tim the Enchanter.

[MrRigger2]

What are your stats? Partially, equipment is going to be based on stats. Also, who else will be allong?

My stats are STR 12, DEX 21, CON 18, INT 14, WIS 14, and CHA 12. I don't know who else is going to be along, as I was the first person rolling up a character and the others weren't there yet.

MrRigger

[Dervon]

What are your stats? Partially, equipment is going to be based on stats. Also, who else will be allong?

My stats are STR 12, DEX 21, CON 18, INT 14, WIS 14, and CHA 12. I don't know who else is going to be along, as I was the first person rolling up a character and the others weren't there yet.

MrRigger

Note, I am speaking as a D&D numbers-cruncher below.

...

Rogue with DEX 21? Nice one.

CON 18? lul wut?

INT 14?! LUL WUT?!

So, I believe my question is: Are you rolling a combat-rogue? Because that stat-line sure doesn't say "Trapmonkey-Skillbitch" (< A colorful term I first heard during my DDO days)

...

Did you use the "Role-for-this-particular-stat"-system, the "Role-and-make-a-pool-of-values-you-can-then-assign"-method or the "point-buy"-system?

Because if #1, then yeah, I understand.

If #2, then are you playing a combat-rogue?

If #3, then DUMPSTAT STR and CHR into INT!

[MrRigger2]

I rolled 4d6 six times, and then assigned them to where I wanted. I got a natural 18 on one roll, so I rolled another 1d6 and added that to the 18 already there, giving me the 21 for DEX. As for what kind of Rogue I'm planning on playing? I'm not sure. Again, I've never played D&D before, so I can't really be sure until I start playing. All I knew was that DEX was roughly the most important stat for a rogue, and CON is important for all characters just so they don't die, and hey, I'm always up for not dying.

MrRigger

[SLAMU]

Larry the Lich assures that dying isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I am outraged at the luck you had with your rolls, and am most envious.

Just make sure to figure out who the backup trapfinder is: the one with the lowest INT, or the one with the most HP?

[MrRigger2]

I'm even more outraged than you. The practice roll the GM had me do, I rolled a natural 18, then a six, then a five. But since that was just a practice, I couldn't use it. Though if you want to be really outraged, one of my other friends once rolled up a character with 47 strength at character creation. The GM was so shocked by the luck of the rolls that he let him use the character.

MrRigger

[Jasruv]

I'm even more outraged than you. The practice roll the GM had me do, I rolled a natural 18, then a six, then a five. But since that was just a practice, I couldn't use it. Though if you want to be really outraged, one of my other friends once rolled up a character with 47 strength at character creation. The GM was so shocked by the luck of the rolls that he let him use the character.

MrRigger

He should make a female cleric named Tsunade!

Don't lose your Charisma, it'll let you pick up a few levels of sorcerer for your rogue. Nothing is quite a sweet as using the spell true strike to get a +20 on the to hit roll for a sneak attack!

A couple of the low level arcane utility spells will make you life as a rogue much easier. True strike for when you really need to hit, Reduce Person to help with sneaking around or getting into restricted spaces, Tenser's Floating Disk for hauling loot or unconscious party members around, etc...


If you decide to go a Rogue/sorcerer or Rogue/Wizard multiclass, spells like knock, fly and invisibility are great to suppliment your abilities as a rogue. Plus you're able to use arcane items without making a Use Magic Device check. And the ability to cut loose with an occasional Fireball or Lightning Bolt is always nice.

[Kal]

Do you know his style of DMing? Becuase that will help as well. In general, NOTHING is worthless... I know of one who gave negatives to stealth becuase no one in the party thought to buy soap! That was rectified by an INT/WIS check on the characters who did not grow up in the city in their backstories, arguing that soap making was a childhood chore, and thus the party could get clean and not give themselves away by stinking of unwashed humans.

I agree that knowing the local of the adventure will help. It seems unlikely that a desert dwelling nomad will have a supply of fishhooks, but it is reasonable for a costal town. Never forget things like sleeping (bedrolls, tents (though you do not seem to be too delicate for sleeping under the stars), blankets...), extra changes of clothing, healing supplies (get the first aid kit, especially if you are a 1st level character -- even cleric healing spells are not too plentiful at lower levels, and you never know when you will be without one! especially when the PC is prone to boughts of unconsiousness during combat situations), food stuffs and equipment to aquire and cook (you are not an orc!) said food (hence the fishing items, pots and pans, etc.). You have a moderat level of WIS and INT, so if you are going to constuct crude traps, these items can double for use in your sneakiness business (never underestimate the use of a sterdy net and fishing wire!).

Caltops! Always! (and with a rank of profession, you could even make them! great with poison!)

Flint and steal is always useful, unless you have a mage/sorceror handy that likes little fire spells...

How are you traveling? Do you even have ranks of ride? Your dex is good, but it never hurts to flesh certain abilities out for some good action sequences. Pickpocketing can be a nice addition, but again it depends on your backstory. For example, the street urchin would certainly have need of the skill, but the privlaged upper crust would only develop it as a means to annoy his elders.

Have you picked your abilities, feats, weapon focus areas, etc? This will help dictate the types of items you need.

As for multiclassing, what is your starting level? I know that we often would take a level of rogue to open the door to some of the class specific abilities and feats, but most just develop beyond a level or three... If you are starting at good old number one, then wait to see what your party needs and don't worry about crossing.

My advice is to write your backstory -- or at least outline it -- so you know what abilities you should already have and what types of equipment you would either own or have knowledge of. Peronsally, I write that as soon as I have a basic character -- that is a class, alignment, and stats. From there, fleshing out equipment and setting abilities easily falls into line.

At worst case, you can always ask your DM for some more help or information. It can't hurt to try.

[Dervon]

I rolled 4d6 six times, and then assigned them to where I wanted. I got a natural 18 on one roll, so I rolled another 1d6 and added that to the 18 already there, giving me the 21 for DEX. As for what kind of Rogue I'm planning on playing? I'm not sure. Again, I've never played D&D before, so I can't really be sure until I start playing. All I knew was that DEX was roughly the most important stat for a rogue, and CON is important for all characters just so they don't die, and hey, I'm always up for not dying.

MrRigger

My advice: swap the 18 CON with the 14 INT.

Why? The +2 modifier that you swap between the two will not affect you adversely in the survival department (because an 18 CON is a nice stat for front-liners, something you are not), but it will boost the whole party's survival chance. The rogue gains the most skill-points out of all the classes and has some of the most vital.

[Darkandus]

Take up taxidermy as an occupation. Back when I still gamed I drove one of my DM's insane by filling the castle with everything I had killed. Before I stopped playing I was working on a thousand year old Red Dragon I was going to have mounted on the keep. I almost always scored the final hit on the bigger enemies. I would have loved to bag a Terrasque. Even had a wish saved up if the oppertunity ever arose. Don't know if you can do that though. That specific DM ran with some crazy house rules.

[Phht]

I concur with Dervon. Paladins, Monks, and the like are front line fighters. Rogues are the sneaky bitches that stab people in the back and try to avoid having the attention of the monster, kinda like magic users. Lots of int means more skill points to put into Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Balance, Tumbling, Hide, Move Silently, etc. That is where a Rogue should be shining.

I would say to take leather armor. IIRC, that gives max dex +5, so you can get some AC protection while not losing any of your dex modifier for AC. Also, get Weapon Finesse for your melee weapon type of choice. +1 from strength vs +5 from dex? No contest.

[Darkandus]

Ah, Arc the rogue. 35 to move silently, 32 to hide and pretty much nothing in anything else. Hiding behind a potted plant is hilarious when it actually works. Especially when the pot is only two foot high and your an elf that has identity issues and thinks it's a dwarf. Completely useless at opening things though.

[Kal]

My advice: swap the 18 CON with the 14 INT.

Why? The +2 modifier that you swap between the two will not affect you adversely in the survival department (because an 18 CON is a nice stat for front-liners, something you are not), but it will boost the whole party's survival chance. The rogue gains the most skill-points out of all the classes and has some of the most vital.

Good point! I had forgotten about that! Will your DM allow for that change? If so, INT is VERY useful. Alternativly, WIS also has some nice abilities, depending on the type of rogue you are looking to play, as does CHA!

INT: Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft. And if you multiclass: wizard gains bonus spells.
WIS: Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks. And if you multiclass: clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers get bonus spells based on their Wisdom scores.
CHA: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. And if you multiclass: Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead, sorcerers and bards get bonus spells.

Oh, and I need to recommend this, if you don't have one already. (for you the gamer, not your character) This is a handy guide to use for quick stats, which I have been told by a couple of newbies helped them organize themselves more than writting it out on paper cold. http://www.scribd.com/doc/4761339/DD-3- ... ter-sheets.

[SLAMU]

A high INT is also good if you were thinking of multiclassing into a spellcasting class. If you were, I would recommend either Wizard (a classic) or Truenamer (if that's availible). Both have INT as their casting stat, and although they don't get nearly as many skill points, the right spell at the right time can be...wonderful. Or, if you don't feel up to missing out on Rouge levels, just go for Use Magic Device, although you'll find yourself purchasing alot of scrolls, wands, etc.

Also, check out prestige classes, alternate options, feats that aren't in the Player's Handbook, etc. You never know when you'll find that one thing that opens up a whole new door for you. For example, there's a feat called Astetic Monk (I think it's a feat) in the Unearthed Arcana book that makes Monk/Sorcerer multiclasses not only viable, but dangerous.

Insist on the Barbarian having a raipier. The thought of someone like Conan tearing through his enemies in a blinding rage, armed with a long metal toothpick amuses me. :D

Consider purchasing a Monk's Belt. It effectivly gives you 4 levels in Monk. Look at the 1st 4 Levels of Monk and tell me that you don't want that. Granted, it would be better if you were, say, a Wizard or Sorceror, but eh, Rouge works too.

Tell us how your game goes.

[Dervon]

My advice: swap the 18 CON with the 14 INT.

Why? The +2 modifier that you swap between the two will not affect you adversely in the survival department (because an 18 CON is a nice stat for front-liners, something you are not), but it will boost the whole party's survival chance. The rogue gains the most skill-points out of all the classes and has some of the most vital.

Good point! I had forgotten about that! Will your DM allow for that change? If so, INT is VERY useful. Alternativly, WIS also has some nice abilities, depending on the type of rogue you are looking to play, as does CHA!

INT: Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft. And if you multiclass: wizard gains bonus spells.
WIS: Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks. And if you multiclass: clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers get bonus spells based on their Wisdom scores.
CHA: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. And if you multiclass: Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead, sorcerers and bards get bonus spells.

Actually, INT makes the most sense, since the other two are one-off character creation bonuses to the relevant skills, while INT provides a skill point bonus at every level. As long as we are talking strictly skills here, anyway.

Anywho, everyone has been mentioning multiclassing, and I'd like to add my two cents:

Your millage may vary on base-class + base-class multiclassing. If your DM enforces the XP penalties associated with this, you'll be more or less locked into a one-here-one-there leveling scheme. If you are OK with this, or if the DM doesn't really care about this rule, then it is really up to you.

Now, base-class + prestige-class multiclassing is just brilliant, no-stings-attached fun. Pick a MC that enhances whatever aspect of roguishness you most appreciate.

Combat flair + limited spellcasting? Assassin, if you can convince the DM that alignment limitations are lame (hurrr, gotta' be evul to kill peple! Not like adventurers ever need to kill stuff, amirite?). You get a nifty set of spells, and your assassinate ability is awesome.

Sneaky git? Shadowdancer. I hope your enemies enjoy fighting a bloke who can 'port from shadow to shadow!

Etc... The rogue-related splatbooks offer so many incredible PCs/Feats/Items, you can build any kind of rogue you imagine. Of particular note: The feats that let you trade Sneak Attack dice you would have been rolling into debilitating conditions, like blindness or slowing. :D

[MrRigger2]

Thanks for all the help, guys. Once we get started, I'll let you know how things go. You've all been a great help. I don't know his house rules on multiclassing, but considering that he mentioned that his next move would be to take a level in fighter (he tried to explain why, but I didn't quite get it all), so I'd say that he's fairly easy on it.

Combat flair + limited spellcasting? Assassin, if you can convince the DM that alignment limitations are lame (hurrr, gotta' be evul to kill peple! Not like adventurers ever need to kill stuff, amirite?). You get a nifty set of spells, and your assassinate ability is awesome.

Well, I'm Chaotic Neutral anyway, so I shouldn't have many problems with regard to killing people anyway. And I know that he doesn't mind at all when he plays himself. I know for a fact that he once nearly came to blows with his GM after his True Neutral Rogue killed an obviously plot-important, but ungodly annoying NPC.

MrRigger