Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby DidelotM1 » April 9th, 2012, 4:07 pm

I think game aside, this whole debacle has done quite a bit to stain the reputation of Bioware as a company. How badly? I can't say. I will say Dragon Age 3 will NOT be a must buy for me after this and to a lesser extent the issues with Dragon Age 2. I was spoiled on Mass Effect 3 and seeing said spoilers did not buy it. I still haven't bought it and have no intentions to ever buy it. This will be the first Bioware game I do not buy since I started buying their games with Baldur's Gate. This whole debacle has killed the Bioware fanboi (where Bioware = automatic awesomeness and an immediate prebuy) in me. Instead everything they make now will get a 'wait and see' approach, which is rather sad to me because they were the last 'automatic buy' game company I had. Oh well.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby bobman10000 » April 10th, 2012, 1:26 am

I think game aside, this whole debacle has done quite a bit to stain the reputation of Bioware as a company.
:agree:

There's no way they actually thought the ending would be satisfying for most people, that people would want some closure about what happened at the very least. My guess is it came down to a matter of time, and they (most likely EA, in this case) had to decide whether a delayed launch or a weaker product would be worse, and they chose wrong. I guess they didn't realize that Mass Effect 3 was a rarity among games today (i.e. a game that, although people would grumble about a delay, the customers would accept it). There are very few gaming companies that seem capable of doing that these days, and EA not only threw away an opportunity to regain at least a little bit of that, but they tarnished the reputation of what is likely the most reputable company they own in the process.

Of course, it doesn't help that Bioware had been promising that the ending would absolutely not be precisely the way they ended it. That, even more than EA's previous reputation, is why I am so sure that the ending is the way it is because of EA. I have little doubt that Bioware's defense of the ending is because they can't come out and say that the reason they didn't deliver the ending they promised is because EA cares more about the almighty deadline than it does quality.

:rant:
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » April 16th, 2012, 7:15 pm

It also doesn't help when Bioware seems to get off on trolling the fanbase.

Here's a shot from their latest ad campaign:

Image

Seriously, Bioware? Seriously?
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Phht » April 16th, 2012, 7:24 pm

I think that's more EA trolling the fanbase than Bioware. Since EA is the publisher, it would be the one primarily responsible for marketing and promotion, not Bioware.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby doc.exe » April 16th, 2012, 11:10 pm

Well, I have not played the games yet (not for lack of interest in them though), so I can't comment on the ending, but I have to say that the backlash it has received and the repercussions of said backlash are really puzzling to me.

I'm aware that what Bioware has done with the Mass Effect trilogy is unprecedented in the medium, and the expectations were so high that it was pretty much impossible for them to please everyone. Even then, the level of hate the ending has received is... well... astonishing.

I cannot stop wondering how much of this is genuine creative bankrupcy from Bioware's part (I have tried to avoid spoilers in this thread as much as I can but... well... the equivalent of One More Day? Seriously? Can something from such an acclaimed studio as Bioware really be as bad as that?), how much is the fault of EA (I don't really hate the company like many other people do, but it's a well documented fact how they have screwed in the past with some of the studios they own), and how much it's old and good fan entitlement (because let's be honest here, there has to be at least a little of that among all the outrage).

And well, the real purpose of this post: After everything that has happened, would you recommend the Mass Effect trilogy to someone that has not played it yet, but it's willing to do so?
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Phht » April 16th, 2012, 11:35 pm

I'd recommend ME1-2 in a heartbeat. They're great games. And from what I understand, ME3 is also a great game, but someone going into that one should be aware that the ending makes no damn sense and has no connection to any choices you made in the entire trilogy prior to that point.

ME1-2, hell yes.
ME3, sure, but be aware that the ending will let you down (more so if you played the previous two games and imported the saves forward as you went).

Also, do NOT play ME3 without an import save. Two friends tried default!Shep choices, and were basically stuck with the suckiest results for everything they did as a result. One friend gave up after 34 hours and uninstalled. The other got an import save and started a new game using that, and the story was much better to play through.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Wittgen » April 16th, 2012, 11:43 pm

There will always be fan entitlement, but it's not really a significant part of why the backlash was so powerful. It's not entitlement to expect something that was promised to you, and the ending is exactly of the format that Bioware promised it wouldn't be. Moreover, it really is just terrible from a writing perspective. And from a gameplay perspective.

That said, the games are still worth playing if enjoy the types of game they are. The RPG elements are pretty lite, but they're not bad. The cover shooting is pretty good in 2 and 3. The dialog tends to be sharply written and engaging. The permutations based on player choices make those choices satisfying. It really doesn't use player choice on the same level as, say, Deus Ex, but that is true for every video game that is not Deus Ex. It's good. Just be prepared to be dumbfounded by the last half hour of the ninety hour experience.

The end of ME2 was also really bad, but even that had nothing on the trainwreck that is ME3's ending. At least the structure of ME2's ending worked, even if the details were dumb.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby bobman10000 » April 17th, 2012, 1:40 am

It may be a good idea to wait to play Mass Effect 3 until the extended ending comes out if you have become invested in the game by the end of Mass Effect 2. It's supposed to be released (for free :eek: ) sometime this summer. Of course, it's possible it will still be a disappointing ending, but it's practically guaranteed to be better than it currently is.

On an amusing note, the statements Bioware made about Mass Effect 3's endings prior to the release were so against what they delivered that the got called on it by the Better Business Bureau, and EA has been voted the worst company in America, by a significant margin.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » April 17th, 2012, 2:03 am

Note, the Mass Effect trilogy is outstanding. Even the parts of ME3 that limp a little are still better than most other video games.

What nigh-on everybody is pissed off about is the ending of ME3. The last 10-15 minutes are what have inspired all this wrath on everyone's part. Bioware literally managed to ruin three games' worth of wonderful momentum, having gone from success to success, with a total letdown at the very last lap.

Seriously, it was like Bioware was a soccer team going into the last minute of the World Cup final ahead by 2-0, after having completely crushed all opposition in all prior rounds with humiliating shutouts, and the only thing they have to do to clinch the victory is avoid dying of massed heart attacks over the next 60 seconds...

... and then they score three own-goals. In a row. In 45 seconds flat.

That is why people are so incomprehensibly aghast at the ME3 ending. It wasn't a bad ending to a bad game. That would merely have been yet another bad day in the gaming trenches. It was a bad ending to a damn good game, that was the last in a trilogy of great games, and then for reasons that still mystify all unto this day, all of that talent and that craftsmanship that Bioware previously had going on the Mass Effect team just utterly evaporates.

It's like watching the last movie in a trilogy where all the prior movies have been Spielberg-level blockbusters, and the first 90 minutes of this one likewise... and then for the last 15 minutes, the wrap-up of the whole damn series, Spielberg just walked away from the set and handed creative control over to Uwe Boll.

We do not understand how the hell Bioware could have screwed up this hideously. And that is part of what drives our anger.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby doc.exe » April 17th, 2012, 1:50 pm

Well, there are two primary reasons for my puzzlement:

1. The level of the outrage. That advertisement is certainly trolling the fanbase, but it’s not exactly inaccurate: I don’t remember the ending of any other series causing this much hate.

2. As an outsider judging by some of the reactions, it seems at times like the lack of quality of the ending is overshadowing the actual quality of the games.

It’s just kind of difficult to believe that a studio like Bioware would fail that badly, although given Chuckg's comment, I suppose that is driving everyone nuts as much as the ending.

This is also the reason for my previous question. I usually don’t care if the ending of a game is disappointing provided the rest of the game is actually good enough, but in this case the issue is causing me some commitment anxiety: If the last 30 minutes of the game are so bad that they pretty much sour and run into the ground what otherwise is a 90+ hours enjoyable campaign… well, it makes me wonder if it’s worth the investment at all.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Atharyn » April 17th, 2012, 2:06 pm

The first two games are definitely worth playing in my opinion.

The third game is not because of the ending. It comes across as the most horrible example of a deus ex machina failing that I have ever encountered.

Personally, I believe someone, somewhere has decided to make an online game out of Mass Effect. They need a starting point for the game's world to work with. Unfortunately, given all the folks playing Mass Effect there are a number of different possible ways the plot could have played out. Instead of letting each of these paths exist, the developers decided to have all the paths end in the same spot.

The signature of the Mass Effect universe has always been that your choices mattered. People you helped (or hurt) in the first game show up in the second game. Things change based on what you have done in the past. Having all of that suddenly end when the plot goes from being a sandbox to a railroad with no warning is why the fans are upset.

Plus, well, let's face it. There are plenty of logic holes in the last 15 minutes. Things that the 8 year old advisor from the Evil Overlord List should have caught, let alone an adult design team.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Phht » April 17th, 2012, 6:41 pm

I don't think a potential online game or what have you has any bearing on the ending. Bioware would just pick the 'canon' ending for the purposes of another Mass Effect game. Kinda like any RTS game that has campaigns for different sides. When they make a sequel, they select one of the campaign endings as canon and go from there.

Bioware already has done this with Mass Effect. The novels/comics set post-ME1 and post-ME2? They're based on what Bioware decided canon choices were (Renegade asshole!Shep) for those games. And any game/novel/comic/whatever coming after ME3 will be based on what they decided canon was for ME3 events.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Arganaut » April 22nd, 2012, 3:05 am

It may be a good idea to wait to play Mass Effect 3 until the extended ending comes out if you have become invested in the game by the end of Mass Effect 2. It's supposed to be released (for free :eek: ) sometime this summer. Of course, it's possible it will still be a disappointing ending, but it's practically guaranteed to be better than it currently is.
I'd hate to burst your bubble man, but the extended ending is basically going to be Bioware 'explaining' the current ending we got. They've gone on record that they aren't changing anything and are sticking with the current 'artistic vision' of their ending. What this basically means is that they're going to try to tell us that this shit sandwich isn't really a shit sandwich through more dialogue with Godchild and a few more cut scenes.

Bullocks. We didn't need 'clarification', we needed a new fucking ending...

Oh, but we can't have people changing the end to a video game. It would upset Bioware's 'artistic integrity'. Bioware's writing is untouchable, their writing is pure gold and instant classics.

Not like those stupid Sherlock Holmes novels written by that Arthur Doyle slob, or that fucking stupid book Great Expectations written by that piece of gutter trash Charles Dickens or that abhorrently awful video game Fallout 3 made by those dickheads at Bethesda...........

That RedLetterMedia thing with Mass Effect 3 that they hinted at on their Twitter account couldn't come sooner.

As for the idea of a future game or MMO being the reason for this, I dunno. If you look at TOR they basically just had everything in the KoTOR be so far back that the specifics were lost to history. The generalities were there, but everything else wasn't.

They could've easily done the same with Mass Effect, given us good diverse endings and then set up a 'In the distant future' for the next game in the series. I suspect that either one of the Head Writers of Bioware stuck his head up his ass and came up with these endings (it has been confirmed that there was no peer review for the ending, it was all one guy) or EA just decided to be dicks.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Minion » April 22nd, 2012, 3:58 am

:dance
Yes. I don't want to pay, but I'll even buy DLC if I have to. Bioware is in touch with its fanbase and is flexible. That is cause for praise and celebration.
I was young and naive when I made this statement.

Yes, I've heard that they are not changing the ending. I'm all for artistic integrity. But not when you sell a product that is headlined by a lie. They said the endings would be something they are not. So we didn't get what we were promised. What we payed for.

I've moved past anger mostly, straight into disillusionment. I know Bioware could have done better, they know it too.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby ShonenHero » April 27th, 2012, 11:03 pm

So that's another Bioware sequel I'm not getting. First, Dragon Age II and now Mass Effect 3. *sigh*
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby ewuvi » April 27th, 2012, 11:32 pm

Might borrow ME3 from someone if it comes up, I dunno.

And apart from the fact that Bioware could've done with a little more time to make more varied maps for DA2, I found it vastly superior to DA:O in terms of plot and combat system. Hawke's story was faaar more compelling than The Warden's generic 'kill teh zombehz' thing.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Arganaut » April 28th, 2012, 9:19 am

Going to agree with ewuvi on DA versus DA2, but then there's also a need to account for different tastes.

I will say that experience with ME3 and just how much was changed from DA to DA2 (the limited number of environments being mentioned by ewuvi) has gotten me wary enough that I'll probably wait and keep my ear to the ground when it comes to DA3 or the next Bioware game in general, rather than immediately leap out to purchase it.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Minion » May 3rd, 2012, 8:56 pm

Alright, so moving away from the ending for a second, how about the Thessia beacon?

The Asari had it, and never told anyone. Not even after Shepard became able to decipher them. The information inside it could have saved a lot of lives... so they kind of brought the destruction of their world on themselves.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Arganaut » May 4th, 2012, 9:35 am

Really, the Asari brought a lot of the pain they ended up feeling on themselves. For being the galaxy's 'diplomat' race, they sure resorted to just drawing everything back to their own system quickly enough. Hell, the Turians and Krogans were making up faster than the Asari actually bothered to even make contact with Shepard (and, depending on how you played, the Geth and Quarians made peace faster too!). Hell, once again, depending on how you played you could've also gotten the remainder of the Batarian Fleet and the mercenary groups together to help you before the Asari.

I guess when the Asari crap the bed, it goes straight through the mattress.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby gamebrain89 » May 11th, 2012, 1:15 pm

So, I've been playing the multiplayer ALOT. It's alot of fun, keeps me coming back. any of the Krogan characters are freaking awesome, but I love my Vanguard. Got him set up to be a Tank. 1600 health, 1600 Shields, then Barrier on top of that. Carrying around a Carnifex pistol with the barrel and scope upgrades, and a Geth Plasma Shotty. I love it. Can snipe stuff with the pistol, and then blast the crap out of anything that gets close. Though once I hit level 20 with him, I'm probably going to try out the Geth Engineer I just unlocked last night.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » June 26th, 2012, 2:22 pm

Welp, new extended 'clarified' endings are here:

Destroy, Control, and Synthesis.

Also, there's a new fourth ending option, Refusal!

And... wow. AFAIK, this is the first time a game company wrote in an entirely new ending option for the specific purpose of trolling the hell out of everyone who complained about the original endings.

I mean, seriously. Shepard finally acts like Shepard, and what do we get for it? "ROCKS FALL EVERYONE DIES". That's how an angry 13-year-old throws a tantrum behind the DM screen because you didn't like his homebrew module. And Casey Hudson actually had them spend time and money making this, in a situation where they were already several months into overtime and already losing money.

I smell a very very sensitive widdle ego. The size of a planet.

In conclusion, Bioware has just guaranteed that I'm going to be playing more Call of Duty in the future.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Minion » June 26th, 2012, 3:52 pm

As soon as I saw this thread updated, and that you posted, Chuck, I knew it wasn't gonna be good news. No offense.

But you're wrong about one thing: Shepard still didn't act like Shepard. The refusal option is essentially giving up. That's not Shepard; s/he takes command of a situation. Shepard would have detonated the Reapers while sparing other forms of synthetic life, like, oh, the Geth, our major allies.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Atharyn » June 27th, 2012, 12:40 am

Let's face it. The entire ending (pick one) is a poorly done Diabolus ex Machina.

If they had paid any attention at all to their own story they would have known that the Protheans managed to re-wire the Citadel so it no longer functioned as it should by tampering with the keepers. Considering that, it makes utterly no sense that the Catalyst, their general, was part of the Citadel the entire time.

If it was part of the Citadel, why was it possible for anyone to interfere at all? The whole concept of using the Keepers as a red herring I find to make a lot of sense. For the "leader" or "general" of the Reaper threat to not have the ability to trigger the Citadel's primary function (bringing them back into the galaxy) by itself ..

.. well, I cannot put into words how utterly nonsensical I find that concept.

I mean, for crying out loud, what happens if the Keepers get killed off or altered? Oh wait - we saw that already. Reference: Mass Effect 1.

When you have a plot hole big enough to pilot the Normandy through you are doing it wrong!
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Wittgen » June 27th, 2012, 4:44 am

But that was two games ago. No one remembers that stuff.

Seriously, though, it's pretty bad. The game's plot has never been good. Remember that this is a super high tech society, and a team of elites can't gather basic evidence showing that reapers exist after talking to reapers and traipsing around dead reapers and blowing up a reaper in the seat of galactic governance.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby doc.exe » June 27th, 2012, 11:54 am

Ok, I'm trying to avoid as much spoilers as I can, but based on the previous responses, do I have to assume that the extended cut didn't improve the endings in any way whatsoever?
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