Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Wittgen » March 20th, 2012, 7:49 pm

Chuckg, your motivation to win arguments is as ferocious as ever, but you're original complaint was that the crucible went against its programming since the beginning for no reason. That was incorrect. It went against its original programming because of the crucible. It's not a great reason. As you showed, it isn't problem free. But it is a reason. It's a point from which you can build non-meta reasons for the limited choices. (Crucible is limited? Red is the only real option; blue and green are the catalyst's last ditch efforts to preserve its function in some way by sidetracking you?) They're still not good explanations. The situation is so tortured, so heavily based on themes and ideas undeveloped through the previous two games, that things are going to suck. No matter how great a sculptor you are, if you inexplicably choose to work with shit, your sculpture is, in the end, still shit.

The more I read about the ending, the more it chafes just how many levels it was bad on. I am inclined to think that the indoctrination theory is just elaborate, well thought out fan wank. But even if it is true, it's still a terrible ending. There's no reveal of the trick. It's bad enough that in terms of gameplay, narrative style, and theme, the ending doesn't really fit with the previous 80-90 hours of game, but if that incongruency was deliberately created and used just to trick the audience?
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » March 20th, 2012, 8:50 pm

Exactly. We have a choice between colossal brain-dead stupidity on the part of the Creator Race (i.e. -- the Catalyst's motivations in the final scene are unhacked and all original stupid), or colossal brain-dead stupidity on the part of Shepard (not realizing that since he's hacked the damn thing, he doesn't have to settle for a stupidly limited command menu). Y'know, like point #9 on Angry Joe's list ("Shepard's acceptance of the God-Child's bullshit").

And as you pointed out, both possible choices each, individually, suck on a giga-scale.

Way to go, Bioware. All roads lead to Failtown.

PS: Yeah, the indoctrination theory is fanwank, I think. The real theory is that its just that bad, and they were just that lazy, rushed, and inept.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Arganaut » March 20th, 2012, 9:47 pm

I'm also inclined to think that the Indoctrination Theory is fanwank. Still, it is amazingly sad when you think about it: we have an actual occurrence where the fans are wishing what happened was a dream rather than have it be real. How mind-numbingly bad does your ending have to be where people are actually wishing for the 'it was just a dream' cop out?

As Witt touches on, the sort of ending where the more you think about it the more idiotic and inept it looks. Seriously, this ending has got to be, bar none, Bioware's biggest screw up ever.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby bookwurm290 » March 21st, 2012, 2:27 am

Here's that fanfic alternate ending

http://arkis.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Ef ... -289902125
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Phht » March 21st, 2012, 3:44 am

I think the big thing that points to the fanwank maybe having some basis, is that Bioware people have mentioned that if players knew what was coming (DLC-wise, I assume), they would have had a completely different reaction to the ending. Which leaves you wondering what exactly this upcoming thing would add that would change a person's reaction to the ending.

Also, the Cruicible/Catalyst controls were on the outside of the station, right? Wouldn't that require that Shep be wearing a helmet, etc? Or did they add magic atmosphere bubble over that area?
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Arganaut » March 21st, 2012, 7:30 am

I think the big thing that points to the fanwank maybe having some basis, is that Bioware people have mentioned that if players knew what was coming (DLC-wise, I assume), they would have had a completely different reaction to the ending. Which leaves you wondering what exactly this upcoming thing would add that would change a person's reaction to the ending.

Also, the Cruicible/Catalyst controls were on the outside of the station, right? Wouldn't that require that Shep be wearing a helmet, etc? Or did they add magic atmosphere bubble over that area?
Eh, that could also just be them doing some PR work to try and salvage a bad situation.

As for the atmosphere thing, considering the amount of Space Magic being thrown around in that last ten minutes, I would be inclined to bet that a magic atmosphere bubble wouldn't be too far-fetched.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » March 21st, 2012, 12:31 pm

Oh, its just PR all right.

This was posted on the Bioware forums March 15th (and reposted on the thread I saw it on). They're transcripts of posts by a guy called "atghunter", who works in corporate PR for other companies as a spin control specialist. He analyzes Bioware's response from the POV of how a PR crisis management team works.
Posted this yesterday, I'll repost here. Hope it helps to see what's on the other side of the mirror atm.

I don't think Bioware is out of touch with their customers though I agree with an earlier poster that right now they are assessing their options. Nor do I think that everyone speaking up for them at the moment is a "yes man" or shill. That said:

I don't for a moment think there are any other endings, this was a hallucination, etc. Bioware/EA is letting these speculations go on for two reasons. First, they are letting people vent. Secondly, they are weighing options.

Years ago, I worked for a PR damage control team and everything right now is going by the book. First, re-affirm and ignore (also known as doubling down), then try and define the detractors in the mainstream with things like "this is all a big mistunderstand", etc. while remaining civil in the hopes the detractors go rabid. Meanwhile go dark and use countermeasures through third part sources to prop up your position and brand the outcry as driven by hacks, haters or a minority trying to wear out the detractors on these outlets or "shock troops" while protecting the corporate core. Next, offer something distracting (notice SWTOR is free this upcoming weekend) known as the "faux olive branch"/ask the angry people to explain their concerns (without agreeing to commit to a compromise), buy more add time (definitely going on right now), and hope it dies down. If the pressure is still on, determine the economic viability of 1) ignoring the outcry and banking on the fickle nature of consumers to get over it or 2) determining if we can make money off of fixing it.

If it is any consolation, the decision whether or not there is a fix DLC, etc, won't be made by the writers so illusions to things they wanted to convey don't matter much atm (to wit: the leads comments yesterday). I suspect he's been called in and politely told by the PR guys to not do that again. This is now a corporate problem, not an artistic struggle with fans. Somewhere in the EA bunker, attorneys, PR guys, writers and brass are sharing numbers b/c in the end this will come down to hard currency.

As one who despises the endings, I'm hoping the suits tell the visionaries that the customers are loud enough and numerous enough to swollow their pride and get them out of this storm. For those that love them, I readily accept your position and respectfully disagree.
Bioware's free SWTOR weekend and Operation Goliath then came out right after this post, tracking right along with the 'distracting olive branch' step of the process.

More analyses by atghunter the PR guy and some other people here: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10084349 Fascinating stuff. Very in-depth.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby MrRigger2 » March 21st, 2012, 12:35 pm

You guys may be interested in this blog post. http://blog.bioware.com/2012/03/21/4108/

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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » March 21st, 2012, 12:46 pm

To be honest, I find that response from Bioware about as convincing as the guy in the back seat of the cop car trying to explain, with the utmost sincerity, that that isn't his crack cocaine in that vial, that's just something he saw lying around on the ground a few minutes ago and absentmindedly stuck in his pocket, and that he isn't a druggie, swear to God and hope to die ma'am.

Anything Bioware does for ME3 fans now, it will be doing only because they're being arm-twisted into it by public opinion; we know just how much and what they wanted to do of their own volition, because we bought it wrapped in a little plastic box at $60-80 a throw, a couple weeks ago.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Minion » March 22nd, 2012, 3:43 am

So according to the thread Chuck linked, an employee said Bioware was actually not intending to make alternate endings. Wow. If that is true, I'm shocked. A ploy to make gamers buy DLC, sure, I can see that. But what possessed them to believe that the ending they gave us was gonna bring closure? Sure some people think it's ok, but Bioware knows their fans, right?
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » March 22nd, 2012, 4:00 am

I didn't read that far in the thread, and some people have been faking quotes from Bioware employees. So, I dunno. Did they confirm the source? Was it actually an official dev account on the Bioware forum itself, or a Bioware blog post, or something?

Anyway, I'm not really much into the trust with what they're saying, pro or con. From now on, my policy with Bioware is a firm "I'll believe it when I see it."

Oh, and today's awesome post from 'atghunter' is a discussion of the commercial vs. the freelance artist...

Artistic Entitlement and The Marketplace

"atghunter" sez:
Spoiler: show
At the moment, a number of pundits for Bioware are making the argument that even if the fans disapprove of the ME3 endings, it shouldn’t matter because this is art and wholly within the purview of the artist’s entitlement to create as he/she sees fit. In short, the argument is no matter how disagreeable the work may be, the artist is entitled to paint the picture they want. I respectfully disagree.

The critical flaw of this position is that it simply ignores art’s interaction in the marketplace. To wit, there are three general “types” of artists in relation to that marketplace.

First, there is the altruist. The man or woman who creates solely for themselves. Perhaps they sell their art, perhaps not. They may dabble in the marketplace, but simply don’t concern themselves with making money. Instead, they do art the way they want and if people approve, great. If not, that’s ok too. These are the most “entitled” artists since they really aren’t selling a product, they do it for the love of their medium. They may have dreams of financial success, but they rarely achieve it since their vision is paramount. And they are quite ok with that btw.

Second, we have the mainstream artist. They have creative control to a great degree, but they are in the marketplace and tailor their work to the populous genre. They will paint in the style of the day (baroque, renaissance, etc). They display their works and people decide if they like the artist’s interpretation of the genre. If the masses approve, the artist makes money. Otherwise, no sale. They have less artistic “entitlement” as they must tailor there interpretations to the style sought by the marketplace. Thomas Kinkade slots nicely in here.

The final individual is the commissioned artist. This person has a known style, but they are paid in advance for their work by a patron. Said patron is, in effect, buying the work, sight unseen, but with an understanding they will like what the artist does. It is a purchase of faith and the artist knows the final work will have to pass muster if they want further commissions. Given, in effect, that the artist is not only being paid for their finished product, but for their time and skills to be used to create a project pleasing to their patron, this is the least entitled artist. Clear historical examples of this can be seen in portrait galleries around the world wherein individuals are clearly given “glamour shot” makeovers from known historical descriptions.

Bioware, falls squarely into this last category. When a game markets pre-orders, releases videos and interviews describing their art in a certain fashion, they solicit patrons and must accept they are taking money to paint a portrait for those patrons. Artistic entitlement is simply curtailed.

I am squarely in the came of those that dislike the endings for the multitude of reasons discussed on this forum. Conversely, I understand others approve of the endings. For my part, will I ever purchase another bioware game? Perhaps. Will I treat them from this point forward as a second category “mainstream” artist? Absolutely. I will inspect their work before I buy. This will ultimately cost me less (ME3 is already significantly less expensive in several markets) with an understanding that the artist can feel more entitled to create what they want and I can feel more entitled to reject their work.

Simply put, artistic entitlement isn’t absolute in the marketplace. Ignore your patrons, and they become customers. Ignore your customers and you become an altruist who in most cases does something else to make a living to supplement complete artistic freedom.

Thanks for the read and credit, where credit is due, my beloved wife (and real life LI) is a category I artist and helped me think this through.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Minion » March 22nd, 2012, 1:44 pm

From what I gathered it was an authentic reply from one Bioware employee.

An article I read on google+, by Ray Muzyka, Bioware co-founder: http://blog.bioware.com/2012/03/21/4108/

So it seems that action may be taken to provide more fulfilling conclusions.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Atharyn » March 22nd, 2012, 5:05 pm

Here's that fanfic alternate ending

http://arkis.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Ef ... -289902125
I actually meant writing a completely separate story entirely. Scrap all of ME3 and just expand on the canvas left from ME1 and ME2.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby bookwurm290 » March 22nd, 2012, 6:58 pm

Well, I don't know about you, but personally, aside from very very end, I loved the story. I don't see any reason to rewrite the whole thing.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » March 22nd, 2012, 7:49 pm

:eek:

I'm going to repost something I've already posted elsewhere, re: even greater horrific revelation about the ending. In order to comply with the board's language guidelines, all usage of... certain words... will be replaced with the word 'smurf'.

---------
This one's from Gibbed, the guy who brought us Mass Effect 1 Saves and Mass Effect 2 Saves, and all that information on how to hack coalesced.bin in ME2 and ME3. We know of his reputation, we trust him.

http://mod.gib.me/masseffect3/testdump.txt

More discussion here.
[biod_end002_600epilogue_loc_int.end004_finale_v_d.end004_finale_v_dlg]
1: We see a child, maybe they look a little bit asari, a little bit human. They are looking at the stars on a planet some 10,000 years after the events of the game.
2: There is an older male here as well, the child looks to the "grandfather" and asks...
Wait, what the SMURFING SMURF?!?

The smurfing 'grandpa tell me a story scene is 10,000 years in the future? TEN SMURFING THOUSAND?!?

Are you telling me that we crashed galactic civilization so hard that as far ahead as ten millenia in the future, people are still saying things like 'each of those stars could have many worlds', instead of 'smurf straight there's life out there, we be colonizing them stars baby'.

Holy smurf, just how far back to the Stone Age did we blast the place?
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Darkandus » March 22nd, 2012, 9:27 pm

Spoiler: show
Image
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Minion » March 23rd, 2012, 1:45 am

:dance
Yes. I don't want to pay, but I'll even buy DLC if I have to. Bioware is in touch with its fanbase and is flexible. That is cause for praise and celebration.

As long as this wasn't all a ploy to get people to buy DLC. A voice in my head is convinced of that.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Atharyn » March 23rd, 2012, 9:40 am

There is one question that I'd like to see answered but I am sure we will never actually get answered. If you look at the ending(s) you will see mostly the same special effects. There are some differences in color, but they are all the same.

Since it is fair to note that we are in a recession, I wonder if this was a cost saving measure by Bioware.

Also, while beating the dead horse, I would like to point out that the rather hallucinogenic ending to ME3 would have been far more likely to have been accepted if there was any indication that the plot was going there in the first place. It seemed like a poorly done Deus Ex Machina to me.

.. what can I say - I am a plot snob.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Wittgen » March 23rd, 2012, 10:55 am

As the angry video above pointed out, the three choices were almost identical to the three choices at the end of Deus Ex. Except, instead of coming at the end of a game entirely consumed with the themes of transhumanism, use of technology as control, and freedom, these three choices came at the end of a trilogy that lightly brushed on those issues a time or two. I don't know if there's any way they could have succeed making those themes take center stage at the climax. There's just not enough support.

I mean, the meat of the game is the genophage mission set and the quarian/geth mission set, right? Both of these deal with incredibly complicated, weighty issues. Genocide, genetic engineering, the exploitation of technologically inferior peoples, A.I. as real life, and even the place and cost of militarism. They deal with these fairly intense issues, and they succeed like nobody's business. These sets of missions are triumphs. Why? In my opinion, it's because they are capstones to what we have done in the first two games. We have looked at the issues from both sides in the previous two games. We have characters we care about personifying the abstract themes. We fully understand the stakes and the choices we have. It makes those choices work. It makes everything work.

On the other hand, the ending deals with themes that we have never grappled with. The use of technology as control is pretty much touched on only in the line "By using the relays, you grow along paths we control." Shephard is mostly robot from shortly after the beginning of the second game, but we never deal with how it affects our humanity. How we relate with others. The melding of machine and flesh is more or less displayed only as the base horror of what the reapers do. Just, ugh. It's frustrating to think that maybe they didn't have much chance of making the ending work even if they didn't pile on the plot holes and contradictions.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » March 23rd, 2012, 12:14 pm

And it doesn't help that the end sequence is so poorly set up and out of left field that the three ending options could actually have been hooked up to 'kill your mom', 'kill your true love', and 'kill your mom AND your true love, via death by tentacle snoo-snoo' for all you'd have been able to tell!

We only had the word of the Catalyst that what it promised would happen would actually happen, and the Catalyst was a total stranger whose story blatantly contradicted itself and our own knowledge and experiences, and whose only chaacter reference was "For millions of years, I have commanded the universe's most epic horde of genocide and mindrape machines! But my holo-avatar is a kyoot widdle kid, so obviously I can't be lying!"

Where's my interrupt option so I can tell it "... Catalyst, I have not been shot in the head NEARLY enough to make this seem like a good idea!"?

Seriously, this is "One More Day" territory here -- what might as well be Satan himself just manifested to you and offered you the stupidest deal of a lifetime, and you said yes.

Edit: Hah! If Harry Potter had ended like Mass Effect 3.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » March 23rd, 2012, 1:33 pm

And yet it still would have been better than the Epilogue. Because HEY! Thing's actually changed!
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby XanderTarbert » March 25th, 2012, 5:52 pm

I'm kinda torn on the "It's art" issue. On the one hand, we desperately want games to be treated as art so that they would fall under the First Amendment. On the other hand, we've got a bunch of people legitimately angry at a shitty ending.

As a knee-jerk reaction, a boycott of Bioware and EA products sounds like a good idea. But gamers are incredibly bad at not buying games. Especially games we have years to look forward to.

Personally, I like Mass Effect's ending in series that fit that kind of theme. Evangelion, Big O, and Ghost In The Shell for example. But in Mass Effect, one of it's biggest draws was making decisions and seeing how they play out later on. The tri-colored explosion feels like being slapped in the face with a fish.

A friend of mine had a discussion over why she liked the ending while I hated it, and her counter-argument to the lack of change between the three choices was, "But they're huge changes! Destroying the Reapers is totally different from combining organics and synthetics." And while that true, we don't get to see the consequences of any of our actions. While you can infer differences in the ending, you don't actually see any of those.

Honestly? The Animal House style ending was exactly what I wanted.

Thanks for reading this disjointed ramble.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby Chuckg » March 25th, 2012, 6:33 pm

I'm kinda torn on the "It's art" issue. On the one hand, we desperately want games to be treated as art so that they would fall under the First Amendment.
Uh, what? A guy blogging about his cat can qualify under the First Amendment. It ain't exactly restricted only to things of alleged artistic merit.
A friend of mine had a discussion over why she liked the ending while I hated it, and her counter-argument to the lack of change between the three choices was, "But they're huge changes! Destroying the Reapers is totally different from combining organics and synthetics."
Somebody pointed out on rpg.net that both the Control and the Synthesis endings are Shepard deciding that one of the villains was right all along! Both villains being guys who were indoctrinated but didn't think they were!

Control? Congrats. You've bought into the Illusive Man's BS. And Synthesis?
I'm not doing this for myself! My way is the only way any of us will survive. I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines! And in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed!

--Saren, on Virmire
Uh-huh. Gee, how wonderful, that one ending requires me to genocide an ally, and the other two require me to abandon what I believe in and start flying the banners of either one or the other indoctrinated puppet.
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby XanderTarbert » March 25th, 2012, 8:19 pm

The argument I most hear for video games to fall under the First Amendment is that they are a form of art. Mostly to provide a reason to why video games would qualify under it.

I never said the choices were good, just that you aren't shown or told what changes happen because which one you pick. Who knows? Maybe you can control the Reapers!
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Re: Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

Unread postby gamebrain89 » March 30th, 2012, 11:09 pm

*Ignores all the other comments for fear of spoilers*

HOLY CRAP Conrad was actually useful?!

:eep

*Runs for the hills to avoid reading any of the rest of the posts*
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