Viridian Dreams Forum

@doc
Are the endings as good as they could've been before all the stupid ass changes to the end plot? From the new ending and the extended Destroy, I'd still say no. But they are much better than they were. Also, they left in that teaser last breath thing with perfect Destroy ending.





Watching the Perfect Destroy Extended Cut, they did work patching the massive hole regarding your teammates getting on the Normandy and the Normandy leaving the battle. Now you see the Normandy come in to pick up the teammates, and it sticks around in the space fight until after you made a decision. Normandy does still get tossed onto a planet, but you see it take off later on.

They also added some further lines regarding the Destroy option not being able to discriminate. And I think more lines with all the other options to flesh out what happens more, prior to the choice being made.

Refusal does seem like a massive fuck you to the fanbase.

Amusing note: The creators of the Star Child made it to mediate between synthetics and organics and bring peace. All attempts failed, so Star Child went to a new solution, resulting in the Reapers. The creating civilization was made into the first true Reaper against their will. As a bonus, the Star Child was aware of the Crucible for a few cycles but thought it had obliterated all mentions of it from the galaxy.

They also added some further lines regarding the Destroy option not being able to discriminate. And I think more lines with all the other options to flesh out what happens more, prior to the choice being made.

This thing alters the genetic/synthetic makeup of every being in the galaxy, and it CAN'T differentiate between synthetic life? But isn't that what it does when you take control of the Reapers? You don't control EDI or the Geth, just the Reapers. But it isn't possible for the magical beam to tell the difference?

There was also mention of the Relays being severely damaged, not destroyed. As well as a rather blatant "We can rebuild everything that was destroyed" line.

There was also mention of the Relays being severely damaged, not destroyed. As well as a rather blatant "We can rebuild everything that was destroyed" line.

They also changed the sequence at the first relay, making it look visually more different from what you see in Arrival, and so making it clear in game that the relays did not go WTFboom and wipe out entire systems. Plus they altered the firing scene so the Citadel looks far less destroyed.

But I'm wondering where they'd get enough eezo to power each relay.

This thing alters the genetic/synthetic makeup of every being in the galaxy, and it CAN'T differentiate between synthetic life? But isn't that what it does when you take control of the Reapers? You don't control EDI or the Geth, just the Reapers. But it isn't possible for the magical beam to tell the difference?

I'd have to rewatch the Perfect Destroy ending, but IIRC there was something about the crucible being slightly damaged or something, which might've impacted performance.

OTOH, I don't see why the crucible couldn't just utilize the Catalyst's command and control systems to send out self-destruct orders to everything under its command. After all, that's likely how you take control of them with the Control ending. Maybe it's because you shoot up the connector part instead of interfacing and issuing orders? Heck, IIRC there's a mention that the Destroy path would damage all technology (but the survivors would easily be able to repair it).

But yeah, I still find it a bit of a slap in the face to all the people who managed to forge peace between Quarians and Geth.

I have to admit I'm a fan of the Refusal ending.

You get to be Shepard till the end and it still is not enough to win against overwhelmingly superior force. Awesome!

Yeah, it is kinda cool, and I like that the beacons Liara made came into play.

But that means Shepard still failed after uniting the galaxy, which no one else had ever done. So there is probably no way for the Reapers to be defeated conventionally. Which means the cycle will still continue no matter what, unless someone makes one of the three choices. Making Refusal completely worthless, dooming the galaxy to be harvested forever. And that is assuming the Reapers and God Child allow that to occur, the Crucible being built again.

By the way, is the Refusal the only way that the Reapers actually win? Do the was assets matter at all? Or does everyone just get to make the same choice? If refusal resulted in victory based on war assets, that would be something.

Refusal ends in auto-fail no matter how high your war assets are.

And yeah, I felt flicked on the raw by an ending that ended with Liara T'soni, our loyal follower, chronicler, and often love interest, having to lecture the next cycle on 'Everything we did fucked up, don't do it what we did'.

Refusal is Casey Hudson using Liara's voice to tell me that ultimately, my Shepard's purpose was to serve as a bad example to others, a walking "Don't Do This, You Idiot" list.

So yeah, I feel just a bit insulted.

So there is probably no way for the Reapers to be defeated conventionally. Which means the cycle will still continue no matter what, unless someone makes one of the three choices.

Sans the DeusExCitadel the war with the Reapers is not supposed to be winnable. ME3 writers wrote themselves into that corner and I think the Refusal option is an acceptable way out without sacrificing plausibility and relying on DeusExCitadel.

If refusal resulted in victory based on war assets, that would be something.

Nah, the tech disparity is too great, Reapers have cycles worth of experience and millennia to build-up their forces. Anything else than them curb-stomping and then mopping-up the galaxy would diminish the ending of ME1.

Disagree. The Protheans, despite all the weaknesses that Javik and Vigil list in ME3 and ME1, still held on for centuries, making the Reapers do a long hard-fought grind to finally bring them down. The current cycle shares none of those weaknesses. (No hardline monoculture that lacked adaptability to changing Reaper tactics, no Reapers controlling all the Mass Relays from the Citadel, no surprise advantage for the Reapers, etc.) So why are we, who are not playing at all those handicaps, supposed to go down infinitely easier than they did? Sure, the Protheans had higher technology, but not THAT much higher. Hell, by ME3, our ships are using some Reaper technology to punch with.

There's a codex entry in ME3, "Reaper Vulnerabilities", that leads off with this opening paragraph.

Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

(This same codex entry then goes on to explain that 3-4 Alliance dreadnaughts can toast a Sovereign-class Reaper.)

So, this whole 'Reapers were always presented as unbeatable!' meme really chaps my buns, because its not so.

Matter of preference, it seems. I like the conventionally unbeatable Reapers interpretation.

In the previous ending, at least, it was arguable that the cycle continuing was preferable to the horrible sacrifices demanded by the other choices. Honestly, blowing up hundreds of solar systems while, at the same time, destroying the infrastructure that was the backbone of galactic civilization? Pretty harsh. Better luck next time is arguable preferable.

I agree with Chuck that it's really silly that the reapers were able to clean up this cycle so late. Did they end up making dozens and dozens of reapers just from the Protheans? That could explain it. Maybe.

I have a friend who liked the ending, but I really don't understand how. He read the game as being about how sometimes, no matter how you succeed step by step, you can unable to succeed in the end. That would have been a great theme, but I don't see it here. You never fail in the game. The ending just arbitrarily makes all your choices really bad, so that even beating the reapers isn't necessarily a success.

I agree with Chuck that it's really silly that the reapers were able to clean up this cycle so late. Did they end up making dozens and dozens of reapers just from the Protheans? That could explain it. Maybe.

Except that they tell us in ME2 that the Protheans were considered undesirable for Reaper conversion, and so they just got turned into the Collectors instead.

Stupid plothole-ridden DM-railroads-you-to-defeat ending BS.

The game's endings were deliberately made to be morally ambiguous. No matter what choice you make, there are consequences. You are denied a clear victory in the best case and more of a "we didn't win, but we didn't lose" situation. In the worst case, you are the executioner for the Reapers.

Just to reiterate a point I believe I made earlier -
Before ME3 was released all we had to go by was ME2. It looked like, in ME2, the Collectors were getting genetic samples of various races / subsets of races / left handed Salarians to experiment on. Given that they needed humans to begin building a new Reaper I assumed that there was some magic element required to actually build a Reaper. If that is the case, I believe it is apparent that only vanishingly rare evolutions have the magic element.

From that perspective the entire cycle of extinction actually makes a lot of sense.
1: The Reapers don't want organics to become a threat - ever.
2: The Reapers want to build little baby Reapers as often as they can.
3: Only a few races (ever) have been suitable components for building more Reapers.
4: Combining the above points makes it highly likely that when they find a race who can be expended to make a new Reaper they will harvest all of them to make as many Reapers as they can.

At this point their rare spawn race doesn't exist any more. If they leave the other races around they will know that the Reapers exist - and they will be highly advanced competitors who will make it FAR less likely that the next rare spawn race does not have the opportunity to really expand. Smaller environment to live in means smaller population overall. (Also more likely to be destroyed by said highly advanced competitors if they ever go to war.)

Thus the only solution is to wipe out all intelligent life and "reset" their galaxy.

Thoughts?

(No, I am not thinking ahead about a fanfic I would like to write to replace ME3 when I have time to write again. These are not the droids you are looking for..)