The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

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The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby MorphCross » August 1st, 2009, 6:03 pm

Welcome! You've read the thread title correctly! This is the thread where we discuss and debate the merits and shortcomings in the works of Published authors! No, I don't know why I'm talking in all exclamation points!

Hrm-hrm! Before we begin, I'm going to lay out a few ground rules. We do not want this to devolve into another Team 7 Sensei Incompetence thread.

Just so you know, ewuvi and I hammered out these rules, and this is her wording. So if my own dubious reputation doesn't shame you into following them, her reputation should. :lol:

We are up for respectful debate. If two people have conflicting opinions, they are to state their opinions in a well supported non argumentative fashion, and then leave it. No further argument will be permitted.

No Tolkien, as that is a mine field just waiting for us. No Paolini, we already had that discussion. No Meyers, she's...well she's not something we talk about. No Rowling, we've pretty much discussed her to death.

No trashy romance authors, no authors are to be put up just because you don't like them. You have to have read at least one book in its entirety by the author to be able to discuss them.

Note your opinion of the books, and why or or why didn't you enjoy it.

If you are going to post an extremely long passage from the authors book to support a stance, please use spoiler tags.

Now I would be remiss to post a topic and not offer my own contribution to the whole.

Terry Brooks and The Elfstones of Shannara.

I chose this author because i've read more than a few of his books so I recognize his style, and I chose this book because it is my own favorite out of the epic length Shannara series.

Things Terry Brooks does well:

Characterization: He does an excellent job of capturing his characters reactions to situations they are put in, he offers reasonable causality for how each view the world due to their experiences, and he translates the character's individual pains into something that the average reader can relate to. For example, Amberle's reaction to being chosen and the feeling of the Ellcrys forcing her to learn what is necessary.

Magic system: His own magic system has greatly influenced my own views in the fact that there is no good magic or bad magic, there is just magic; those who use it can use it with good intent and bad intent.

I'm going to post what I've got for now and will edit and add when I get back.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby ewuvi » August 1st, 2009, 7:16 pm

I haven't read much in the way of Terry Brooks, so I can't offer up much comment.

Spoilers for length and for actual spoilers of the works of Tamora Pierce, Jacqueline Carey, and Anne Bishop. The spoilers will be kept to a minimum, I swear. Also, for sugar fueled thinking.
Spoiler: show
First, I would like to point out that I love the works of all of these authors, despite the scrutiny I am about to give.

Okay! These will all be sort of intertwined, but I'll try to stay organized. Alphabetical order!

Anne Bishop: Her books (most notably Black Jewels Trilogy, but also Ephemera books) feature wonderfully fantastical worlds and characters. Her magic systems are quite unique, at least in my opinion, and she uses a combination of darker elements tinted with humor to keep the reader hooked and going.

And yet. These are not books you can read a second time, at least, not with some degree of shame and face palming. In fact, I couldn't even get through Pillars of the World the first time, because that book featured some incredibly unlikable characters, and I couldn't wait for character development to take hold, especially not Bishop character development. Her characters are almost painfully flat upon further inspection, and the only character development I have seen is to the negative. Case in point: Daemon Sadi. Where is the Sadist? I never once saw him being as badass as the title implies. Even his last Sadist moment, which was a CMoA the first time around, became quite dissatisfying a second time. This is not to say her characters can't be interesting; they can. Lucivar and Saetan and Surreal were amazing the first read, but still, their characters are comparatively flat. To add to this, the women, while powerful, are often whiny and unlikable. Really, while they lack the trap of trying to act masculine to be strong, they also depend on the males to an almost pathetic degree. Until Jaenelle's final attack, she differs to the males in order to get everything done. The males are also flat. They all turn into mushy little servants when Jaenelle shows up.

My next point is the almost Disney-like quality of the villains. After a certain point, it's just ridiculous. During the first read, Hekatah, Dorothea, and Sebastian's father in that book, were all such great villains because of their evilness. Honestly, the Mahrkagir of Kushiel's Avatar is more compelling, in that, despite his horribly heinous ways, he's sort of distantly relatable. Not so for Bishop's villains. They also employ the most classicly 'evil' traits to make you dislike them. They're abusive of their children, they rape people, little girls and main characters alike, they kill people for the funsies, and they want power. It's like Dragon Ball Z with sex instead of fights, I swear.

Which brings me to my next point. All of the conflict is so...tacky almost. The heroes stop the bad people within mere chapters of the evil plot being revealed. The only time this is not so is when the Ultimate Showdown is near. And all of the evil plots are so over-the-top bad, that it almost leaves me laughing. That is not to say that it isn't compelling the first time around.

Then there are her settings. As beautifully dark as they are, they almost seem to be a particularly imaginative teenager's idea of Dark and Edgy. Many of them are wonderful nonetheless, but really, after a certain point it is almost eye-roll inducing.

Now the positive. I truly love Anne Bishop's books the first time I read them. They are fantasy and escapism, if they lack a bit of depth. They're fast paced adventure with some stronger women, notably Surreal and Belladonna, and they have fantastic moments of heartwarming and funny and awesome. Truly. I don't even grudge the $21 I slapped down for the Trilogy, as there was at least that value of entertainment in them. The things I noted above are the products of critical rereading and thinking, things that you do for school work and not for the fun of it, typically.

And you can see how much I enjoyed the Black Jewels Trilogy in the Book Discussion thread. I freaking love those books, if only I can just think of the first read through.

Jacqueline Carey: Okay, I have relatively little negative to say about her, I am still infatuated. :roll:

The one thing that I have to say is that Joscelin and Phedre are almost too heroic, although they have enough depth that rereading multiple times is still a joy, and I can pick up on things I missed the first time around.

There is also the emerging pattern in her books. The character will spend the first part of the book in one place, figuring out what they must do. The next part is spent somewhere else, usually with a conflict, which leads them to the last place, which has the final conflict and resolution. Despite this, Carey makes all of the books unique enough, and messes with the formula enough to make them compelling enough that I can read all seven without regret.

There is also the Imriel trilogy. In Avatar, Imriel was pretty cool. In Scion, he was a whiny weeny, and I just wanted to slap him. The books lacked the drive of Phedre's, Imriel was a less likable character, and his thing with his cousin was a bit squicky at first. I had to set the book down and chant 'They're distant-ish cousins. They're royalty. It happens.' a few times. But really, half-way through Justice, the series picks up and is more enjoyable.

Naamah's Kiss is almost shockingly good, and feels that while the first trilogy had a feeling of wonder that the second lacked, Jacqueline Carey grew as a writer. I've read the book roughly four times, and I still love it.

There is also Santa Olivia, which showed us that Carey can write a beautiful third-person, as well as sci-fi-almost realism. While the portrayal of the U.S army is somewhat negative, each soldier as an individual is quite likable. The characters aren't all explicitly beautiful, and no one is really evil. The dynamic between Miguel and Loup was amazing. Carey is a queen of character relationships.

Her worlds are fantastically rich and original, even if they do play off of normal world history a lot. While this may be slightly off putting to some, I feel it grounds her wildly unique worlds so that a reader can connect.

Jacqueline Carey also features incredibly feminine heroines, and still makes them strong. Phedre's 'that which yields is not weak' and Moirin's wonderfully fickle girlishness and sensuality make them more compelling than the 2D character of Bishop's Surreal, the prostitute assassin, and make them more inspiring than Tamora Pierce's more masculine heroines. More on that later.

Another thing, that is bothersome to some readers, is the relatively slow pace of Phedre's books. This doesn't bother me, because I love watching the amazing chess game between Melisande and Phedre, but the amount of time that it takes Phedre to figure out the entirety of the plots and foil them is off putting to many readers switching from YA to adult fiction.

Yeah, I need distance from Jacqueline Carey before I can pick out all of her flaws. But such an awed view of an author is nice sometimes.

Tamora Pierce: Okay, it's hard for me to be critical of her. I learned to read on The Song of the Lioness, skipping from picture books, to Little Bear, to Alanna. It was the first real novel I read, and I still fondly remember staying up into the wee hours of the morning and my first grade teacher being mildly annoyed by tiredness and inattentiveness.

My one true complaint is this: Pierce makes her heroines masculine to make them strong. Alanna and Keladry especially so. The girls are knights, so it makes sense, but even so. It's also YA, so yeah. Pierce has pretty much fixed this, what with Beka Cooper and Aly Cooper. A policewoman and a spymistress. Both of them are very feminine, especially Aly, while still being exceptionally powerful women. Pierce is growing as an author, I feel.

Pierce writes YA, so her worlds are less detailed than Carey's or Bishops. Her plots are superior to Bishop's, in my opinion, and slightly inferior to Carey's, but I doubt a YA author could write something with so many convolutions as Carey does and get away with it.

I buy pretty much everything that comes out by Pierce, although I forgot to mention examples from the Circle of Magic ;) . Pierce is also re-readable. While her plots are relatively straight-forward, her characters are so enjoyable that I can read them multiple times and not get bored or annoyed.

Okay, yeah, done for now.
:shock:
Wow. I can't believe I just wrote all of that. Hopefully it makes sense.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Dervon » August 2nd, 2009, 6:33 am

Terry Brooks eh? Can't really say I particularly like his writing. In fact I bought the omnibus edition of Original Shannara Trilogy and didn't get though the first book. Dunno, I think for me it was the constant "Our X is different". Forest Dwarves. Bloodthirsty Halflings (or were they gnomes?). Etc... I'm all for reinvention and interesting new takes on established matters, but to me it felt like change for the sake of change.

*shrugs* I suppose someone who has gone through the whole series can tell me if this is just a weird impression I got. Should I soldier on, read through the whole first trilogy?

...

G. R.R. Martin, anyone? I'm certain you are all acquainted with his "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, but has anyone here gone through his two "Dream-Songs" anthologies? There are some real gems here, I can tell you right now.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Chuckg » August 2nd, 2009, 3:42 pm

Terry Brooks is, in my opinion, a classic example of how any good idea can be killed by trying to milk it too much.

Or: The first three Shannara books were great, after that, it just felt like an exercise in paying the rent, and the longer it went on the more obvious it became.

In conclusion, Garet Jax totally wtfpwned that damn Jachrya before dying, nothing else is possible. :D
Last edited by Chuckg on August 3rd, 2009, 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby MorphCross » August 3rd, 2009, 1:21 pm

In conclusion, Garet Jax totally wtfpwned that damn Jachrya before dying, nothing else is possible. :D
That was the conclusion I came to as well. The guy faced down a Kraken with a lance and came out alive. He faced down lopsided odds with nothing but his skill and standard weapons and regularly came out on top. No way would he go down and not take the Jachyra with him.

Dervon, the first book has been noted by many readers to be a somewhat blatant ripoff of Lord of the Rings, but lacking in the finesse.

That being said number two (Elfstones) at the very least is worth reading. With number three (Wishsong) it's YMMV. The main Ohmsford in Wishsong comes off as a very Mary-Sue character. Luckily her brother adds balance to the equation.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Jasruv » August 3rd, 2009, 2:01 pm

I'd like to bring up David Weber. I've read almost everything that he has published and he is one of the few authors that I can say has never written anything that I haven't enjoyed reading.

His one shots such as Apocalypse Troll and Path of the Fury are great.
I love the Heirs of Armageddon series and the War God's Own series.
The Honor Harrington universe is completely awesome.

The only book of his that I can say that I avoid is the one where Honor's first love Paul Tankersly is killed in a duel and that is only because I hate seeing her suffer like that.
I don't believe in overkill, but I do believe in economy of force. Which is why I don't use tactical nuclear devices to get rid of gnats that are annoying me. Well, not often anyway.

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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » August 3rd, 2009, 6:29 pm

Agreed. The March... series is excellent stuff, as is The War God's Own.

And speaking of authors who can do no wrong, David and Leigh Eddings. How the hell have they not been mentioned yet?
"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
— Captain America

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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby MrRigger2 » August 3rd, 2009, 7:03 pm

I think I need to toss Jim Butcher's name into the fray. Author of both The Dresden Files and the Codex Alera, he's great at both the hardboiled detective first person, and the world threatening, multi-plot line third person. Highly recommend him.

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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby gman391 » November 15th, 2009, 11:38 am

Total agreement on Weber and Butcher.

What about Harry Turtledove and S.M. Stirling?

Turtledove does pretty well from what I can tell but some of his stories have 'more of the same' feel to them.

Stirling is also fairly good and his Die's the Fire series is excellent. My only complaint is his tendency to jump perspectives.

Any thoughts?
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Calinero » December 31st, 2009, 2:42 am

I do not think I can go on long enough about Jim Butcher to satisfy my love for him without breaking the internet. Between the Dresden Files and Codex Alera, he shows exactly the best ways to implement urban and high fantasy, respectively. Butcher's real strength lies in two key areas--world creation and his interesting protagonists.

Both the Dresdenverse and Alera are extremely well thought out, and interesting. The Dresdenverse weaves countless mythologies together, as well as aspects of the real world. Alera manages to be very interesting and keep more of a traditional fantasy feel while avoiding nearly all cliches.

As for protagonists, I love to hear about Tavi's plans, but Harry really takes the cake. He is funny, but flawed (in a good way) and is incredibly interesting to watch. My only complaint about the series is that Dresden Files seems to be taking so long to reveal who this 'Black Council' is. But it will probably be worth the wait.

Another author to throw into the mix:

H. P. Lovecraft

Wordy to the extreme, yes. Antisocial and a bit racist? Yes. But darned if he isn't one of the best people at creating terrifying creatures and descriptions I know of. Those who can wade through his vocabulary are usually in for a pretty creepy tale.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby gman391 » December 31st, 2009, 5:07 am

Lovecraft is good at terrifying monstrosities but his prose always killed it for me.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Random_fan » December 31st, 2009, 5:37 am

I'm gonna throw a name into the ring, Matthew Reilly. He may not be the greatest writer but his stories are always exciting and anyone who can get teenage boys to want to read deserves a lot of respect.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby gman391 » January 1st, 2010, 12:05 am

What does he write?
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Random_fan » January 1st, 2010, 1:32 am

Action novels, not just regular action novels but action novels that put most of hollywood's 'summer blockbusters' to shame. He writes some of the most fact paced stuff you will find in any media. Especially the 'scarecrow' series, the first book has about four and a half chapters of downtime, including one chapter after the climax, the third, and currently final, book manages to put that to shame. The amount of CmoA's are ridiculous and the plots, especially the 'Jack West' series are very well done.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Calinero » January 3rd, 2010, 11:06 pm

Another writer that I'm a big fan of: Stephen King.

I know that some people don't like his writing style--I can see how some might say that he goes on a bit too much, or is a bit too informal (pretty much the opposite of Lovecraft, in that respect) but I kind of like it. It makes me feel like an actual person is telling me the story. Plus, even if his style isn't always perfect, he has some really good stories. Personal favorites of mine would be the Dark Tower series, as well as Duma Key and The Dead Zone and Firestarter. Didn't much care for Cujo, though, or Desperation.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby gman391 » January 4th, 2010, 2:03 am

I never really got into King...I acknowledge that he's a hell of a writer. You know I think I heard somewhere that King slammed Twilight and Twilight fans accused him of jealousy....
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Calinero » January 4th, 2010, 9:43 pm

Oh, yes he did....he basically said that Meyer wasn't a very good writer. Wasn't overly mean about it, but that's what he said. Some crazy fangirl went on to say it was because he was jealous of Edward's looks.

Aside from going into the issues of how a fictional character can be 'hot' (I mean, all you have to do is type 'they're hot,' and kablam! it's not that hard!), I think Stephen King has got the good life going for him. No need for him to be jealous of virtually anyone. And I know that some people appreciated his comment--on his tvtropes entry it says that he has been promoted from Stephen King to Stephen God. Heh.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby gman391 » January 4th, 2010, 11:08 pm

Good for him
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world."
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Acrewood » February 19th, 2010, 10:51 am

Yes, that makes about as much sense as Miley Cyrus getting angry that Radiohead wouldn't say Hi to her. As for an author:
Gore Vidal:

Strengths: He's probably one of the best writers of his generation, his plots are involved, his dialogue is hilarious, his message is totally there. He writes mostly historical stuff, but he manages to convey current messages as well as enough fact to get me to pass my AP world class. As you can see, I'm a little obsessed. READ HIM.

Flaws: His main characters all tend to be variations on him, whether they are male or female, their wit is usually very similar and their circumstances are nearly identical. However, he manages to make each book unique in some way.

Books of his I've read: Creation, Empire, 1876, Creation again, Hollywood, Creation a third time, Duluth.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby gman391 » February 19th, 2010, 11:40 am

Hey no double posting!

Anyways for your consideration might I suggest Bernard Cornwall? A Historical writer that tends to focus on British History.

He's probably best known for his Richard Sharpe Series which was about the Napoleonic wars (I find that it is awesome. I read it for most of high school) But the books I like best Is the Vagabond Trilogy which was about the start of the Hundred Years War and cemented my love of European History.

He writes some great male characters and is very good at showing his work. His stories are usually action packed and try to remain factual as possible. Cornwall does have some flaws. His females are...well not the most pro-feminist ones and I picked up on a real anti-Christian vibe in his works set during earlier periods. Still a great writer in my opinion.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby Calinero » February 20th, 2010, 3:27 am

Those interested in historical fiction might enjoy Harry Turtledove, big on alternate history. Lots of detail and decent writing, though some of his books are a bit......well, let's put it this way--some of them are about aliens invading during WWII. They're a bit special. Still makes for a decent read, though.
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Re: The Great Debate Thread of Great Authors

Unread postby gman391 » February 20th, 2010, 4:22 am

Sure some of the premises are absurd still great stories though.
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