Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

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Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby AboveTail » February 15th, 2012, 11:03 pm

Ok, I am in the middle of writing the first chapter of a Naruto divergence fanfic where Minato manages to survive the sealing of the Kyuubi into Naruto. Now a common trend that I have noticed with many other fanfics is the use of japanese words when they are not needed or the english equivalent would do. My question is this: would I benefit more from peppering the story and dialogue with these japanese terms, or try to avoid them whenever possible?
Currently, I only using the japanese terms to refer to the techniques that they use, and whenever I find the use of an honorific necessary to convey the tone of the person who is speaking.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby Wittgen » February 16th, 2012, 9:11 am

Don't use Japanese just to use Japanese. It's an egregious expression of weeabooism. Hideously annoying to both people who actually know Japanese and people who don't know any Japanese, it purely serves as an appeal to those who feel OMG JAPAN IS TEH COOL. Appealing to those people is not good writing.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby gman391 » February 16th, 2012, 4:45 pm

Personally, I use a few Japanese words in my writing, and not just in jutsu names, although it's primarily honorifics, titles, and names. And, yes, an occasional “hai” here and there. Can this be annoying? Yes, very much so, it's something best used sparingly and when context means that a reader can figure it out easily.

As an example:

Naruto looked at his teacher and let out a confused, "Nani?"

From context you can guess that Nani means 'what?' or 'Huh?' that means it's not really that annoying and doesn't distract from the flow to much.

A counter example.

"Aishiteru," Hinata said.

Now, just from what is written, it's not clear at all what Aishiteru means. Thus the reader is annoyed and the flow for the scene destroyed.

So Japanese terms in themselves aren't bad, but keep in mind how you use them. As Witt said, using them just to say you used Japanese isn't a great thing. But using them well and accurately to really give the feeling of another world? Well, that's just gravy.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby Minion » February 16th, 2012, 5:01 pm

A good question. I would have to say it's subjective.

I think a large reason people use Japanese is RULE OF COOL. Why else would some writers (myself included) put jutsu into Japanese rather than English? Because it does sound cooler!

(I'd like to note that if someone is going to use Japanese for jutsu should include subtitles/translations in the chapter they are used in. One of my favorite stories, Shinoibi Wars, listed them all in the first chapter, but I wasn't going back to read for each jutsu as that took me out of the story)

Take Team 8 for example, the fic the forum ultimately revolves around. There are instances where characters use Japanese words in place of certain English words. A few examples:

"Hai!" Naruto barked
Hai =Yes

Hinata's eyes flew open with an audible snap. "G-gomen?" she stammered.
Gomen = Sorry

"Nani? Why would I want anyone else to know why all the adults hate me?"
Nani = What

It may seem egregious when thrown at you outside the context of the story, but while reading it may not. How often you watched subbed anime may also affect how it feels to you, as the above words are commonly used. The Authorlord himself said that he began to understand some Japanese through osmosis from watching anime.

(Although I think he (Authorlord) may have stopped doing this as I couldn't find more recent examples, time will tell)

That, and many manga/anime use Gratuitous English.

One Piece does is always. Franky has a catchphrase of "SUPER!" said in English. Not to mention that the language they appear to be using in One Piece is English, but characters still add appropriate Japanese suffixes (chan, san, sama, chin). Then there are Sanji's attacks, which are in French. Robin has attacks in French AND Spanish. Luffy's the main one here, because ALL of his attacks are in English.

Then there's Kubo, with so much Gratuitous Spanish I don't feel the need to give examples. Quincies also use German, so...

If writers who dabble in manga/anime series with fanfiction can't do the same thing without being flamed, then that's a bit of a double standard.

The purpose of language is to express intent and communicate. If you believe you can do this more intuitively by substituting certain English words for Japanese words, then do so at your own discretion.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby SLAMU » February 16th, 2012, 7:22 pm

I would suggest going very easy on Japanese when you're writing. To the question of making it gratuitious? I'd say 'no'. I personally try to keep the Japanese to a minimum in my work, sticking to nouns (kunai, sushi, Daimyo, sensei, etc) and honorifics (-kun, -san, -sama, -dono, etc), instead keeping to English, as frankly I feel more confidant as a wordsmith and story teller in a language I'm used to, and likely readers are going to be a wee bit more familar with English as well. The only exceptions I could really see would be would be for jutsu, and even then I personally find it annoying to try and figure out what the Japanese name for a manuver would mean in English.

So Japanese: yes, gratuitous Japanese: no.

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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby Comosicus » February 17th, 2012, 6:04 am

You might consider it as seasoning a dish with spices. A pinch here and there can give it an entire dimension of flavor. Too much and is not palatable anymore.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby AboveTail » February 17th, 2012, 6:59 pm

I do agree that the use of Japanese adds some variety to the narrative, and as Minion stated before, Using the Japanese names for the technique definitely makes it sound cooler and more exotic. As I stated before, the use of honorifics is extremely useful in these stories because it can convey the level of respect that the speaker is giving to the other person better than just using the name could.

On a related note, I'm not exactly sure how to address Naruto's little catchphrase that he often uses-dattebayo.
I read that it doesn't exactly mean anything but the closest translation would be something like "you know".

I've been peppering the translation within his dialogue because my internal reading voice is incredibly irritated by the addition of the nonsensical word endings some eccentric characters to english sentences. On the other hand, I feel like its an essential part of the character's personality being expressed that shouldn't be ignored.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby gman391 » February 17th, 2012, 7:28 pm

So long as you don't use "Believe It".....
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby AboveTail » February 17th, 2012, 9:16 pm

So long as you don't use "Believe It".....
Ugh, I would rather slam my face into the keyboard a few dozen times and submit that rather than type that phrase into my story.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby serbii » February 18th, 2012, 6:15 am

Barring general horrible writing;
All English is almost always fine - exceptions only for truly horrible dub names.
A little Japanese can be fine.
Lots of Japanese is almost always horrid.

General rule of thumb - suffixes are fine if they're used by the major sub/scanlation groups of the series. Try to avoid most other Japanese words. That's just my opinion.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby Phht » February 18th, 2012, 7:57 am

Ugh, I would rather slam my face into the keyboard a few dozen times and submit that rather than type that phrase into my story.
Believe It!


Yeah, I'd use dattebayo instead of that every single time, no question. I tend for JP jutsu names with certain exceptions (Dynamic Entry/Marking/etc, for example; Mizurappa might go the same way since there's two jutsu with different kanji but same romanization), and usually keep myself to -san/-sama/-sensei on honorifics. A key thing is to decide what you're going to do and stick to it. Are you going to call it Hi no Kuni or Fire Country? Once you make that decision, then all other country names have to go the same way. Decide how you're going to refer to villages, and stick to that with all villages.

I like Comosicus's take on it.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby Zanfib » May 3rd, 2012, 3:28 am

My perspective is that anytime you want to use a Japanese word, ask yourself if there is an English word with an identical meaning. If the answer is yes use that word instead.

For example: use 'yes' instead of 'hai' and 'what' instead of 'nani'. These words are identical to one another so nothing is gained from using the Japanese.

honorifics such as 'chan' 'kun' 'san' 'sensei' or 'sama' are fine as there is no graceful English equivalent. The exception to this is if the setting you are writing for does not have a Japanese culture in which case honorifics should only be used to characters that are Japanese themselves.

For example, Naruto despite not being set on earth has a Japanese culture so it makes sense for the characters to use Japanese honorifics. In comparison, Recettear is set in a fantasy European city so most of the characters would not use Japanese honorifics except for Nagi who comes from fantasy Japan.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby Nitramy » May 3rd, 2012, 4:33 am

Also, if you're dealing with Japanese, know that their singular and plural have no "s".

So if you're going to indicate multiples of jutsu, use numbers or indefinite descriptors, such as "several". "Jutsus"?

nope.avi

(and yes I am guilty of the above offense, but I will get to that after I revise my previous work)
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby jgkitarel » November 12th, 2012, 6:27 pm

The only time I would excuse the use of more than just a seasoning of Japanese is if there is a clear language barrier in effect. Even then, use it sparingly and for God's sake ask someone who knows the language to quality check it or help you write the relevant bits. This is a general rule of thumb for any use of a foreign language.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby Rague » January 31st, 2013, 12:45 pm

I have to ask though. Would a Japanese speaker constantly refer to someone by their last name first? If a Japanese person learned English, they would adapt to just using the first name, right? Does anybody know anyone who has to switch over like this? It's got to be kind of annoying.

Using "chan, teme (oh so many times), san, and kun" I can get. But with anime in general, saying "Sarutobi Konohamaru" just sounds awkward.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby Wittgen » February 1st, 2013, 4:59 am

Yeah, most bilingual Japanese people in an English speaking environment switch over to using their given names. It's still a little awkward though. For example, I call my girlfriend (who I talk with 99+ percent in Japanese) by her given name. No chan or anything. It's, I dunno, intimate. Very direct and personal, and I wouldn't do it if we weren't so close. Now, when I'm talking with parents and my girlfriend comes up, it feels awkward to refer to her in the same way. Even if that might be what they would call her if she was talking with them in English. So instead, I refer to her by her family name with sensei appended. It's what I called her when we were coworkers and friends, and it feels less weird.

Long story short, the convention difference is something you navigate whenever you run into it. There's not a hard and fast rule. I don't know how relevant it is here, since we're not talking about actual bilingual people. I will reiterate my opinion. Don't use gratuitous Japanese. Don't use any Japanese if you're not 1000% confident in what you are doing.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby Rague » February 2nd, 2013, 1:41 pm

I will reiterate my opinion. Don't use gratuitous Japanese. Don't use any Japanese if you're not 1000% confident in what you are doing.
Interesting. I will keep that in mind. Thank you.

I was curious because I've been noticing that the Bleach anime constantly has dialogue where a character refers to someone, be it friend or foe, by their full name. "Kurosaki Ichigo, Kisuke Urahara, etc etc" Even in the English dub. The setting of Bleach and Naruto focus more on an Eastern style, but it just seems odd that even a dreaded enemy would refer to their enemy by their full name. Though I'm not sure if this is the case in the Naruto anime, still, if I were a villain to some great hero, I'd be all kinds of disrespectful when referring to my archnemesis.

I suppose certain animes just keep that convention at the forefront.
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Re: Gratuitous Japanese: Yes or no

Unread postby jgkitarel » February 3rd, 2013, 9:23 pm

It's not that you can't use Japanese, or even Japanese conventions, but do your research.

Anyway, since we are on the subject of using Japanese, here's a pet peeve of mine: The use of honorifics.

On the use of honorifics, or additions to names in general, be very careful. One bit that tends to annoy people is using something as a title where it would be pointless to do so. To use a common fan example from Naruto, his calling Sasuke, or referring to him for that matter, Sasuke-teme. This is not only inappropriate, but meaningless.

Teme, in the context used is a rather impolite way of saying "you", with the contextual meaning being "bastard" or some other insult. It is not something that follows a name, nor have I really seen it done so, or heard it done so for that matter.

Honorifics can be complicated, extremely so, since they are a combination of gender specific, gender neutral, age-based and contextually based on social seniority. It should be noted that Japanese has dozens of honorifics, so keeping them straight can be difficult. Some are only used in specific circumstances, only in a formal setting, or are rarely used, but still appropriate.

Here's a quick run down for simple use, and this is the simple list.

-sama: Indicates high seniority socially or positionally. Can be used to address nobles as well without making a faux pas.

-san: neutral honorific, used amongst social equals, people who are unfamiliar with each other and by children when addressing adults who are not clear social superiors.

-kun: While implied to be male gender, it is gender neutral. Used to address subordinates in a professional capacity, even females where there is some familiarity and respect. Outside of professional fields, it is used to address younger men and boys. It is highly familiar, so it is only used by those who have either a clearly established heirarchy, or by friends and family.

-chan: Very familiar way to address females. While it is often used in professional fields, it can be considered very impolite if used by a co-worker who is not highly senior. It's also used by older adults to address young women and children. When used to address a boy, he is either very young, or is being addressed as such because he is either being very childish, or it is a deliberate insult.

-sensei: Used to address teachers, but it is often used to also address a given master in any field, regardless of whether the individual in question is teaching or not. It is also an acceptable way to address a doctor (where the much more formal -isshi would not be necessary). Keep in mind that this is not in the context of master-apprentice.

-sempai: Addresses a (probably) social equal who has seniority over someone. Most commonly seen in schools, where upperclassmen are addressed as such, it is also used in the context of a more experienced coworker being addressed as such by newer associates. They are there to help the bosses out by training the newbies, or just simply offering advice from learned experience

-kohai: The opposite of sempai. Used more in Japan than would be seen in fan works, a kohai is expected to listen to the sempai's advice, though they can offer their opinion without it being socially awkward.

Confused yet?

Honorifics can actually be a sticking point to a lot of fanfiction writers, which can actually show if the writer knows the conventions, or did their research. There are several who refrain from even using honorifics unless it is absolutely necessary to avoid mistakes since they may use one that may be grammatically correct, but still incorrect for the context of the situation. Using them in appropriate circumstances and avoiding the overuse of them is a fine line to walk.
Also, I have to punch you, jgkitarel, because I spent a lot of time on the nanoha wiki trying to locate information on mages being trained due to being above a certain rank, only to remember and confirm that you were the one that came up with that. - Phht
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