Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Out of play chat and commentary on the game.

Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby spudman » December 6th, 2011, 2:10 am

An interesting discussion on skype with ewuvi:
Spoiler: show
ewuvi: the problem with Naruto RP though is that people control the 'damage' that their character takes

spudman: I know...I try to balance that out with what I write. In threads I run I roll for damage (though not all the time, I confess) and the DCs are pretty arbitrary. In threads I don't run I try not to let my characters get out unscathed.

spudman: We should figure out something though

[12:54:43 AM] ewuvi: yeah cause that's kinda why I dropped in the first place

[12:55:00 AM] ewuvi: it's fun to RP but the fights are ridiculous and depend on who is most willing to act like a sue

[12:56:33 AM] spudman: Right, at the same time though I don't think a standard d20 system quite cuts it. An elite ninja does not have a 1 in 20 chance of flubbing a dodge or block.

[12:57:25 AM] ewuvi: true

[12:57:37 AM] ewuvi: if we could like...pit stats against each other somehow

[12:57:39 AM] ewuvi: or something

[12:57:52 AM] ewuvi: I dunno, it's kinda why I mostly dropped out of it

[12:58:03 AM] ewuvi: willing to do Kyoko for RP reasons though

[12:58:43 AM] spudman: Well, phht and I are doing most of the planning at the moment. You could also volunteer your services in planning numbers for a system of sorts, if you like.

[12:59:01 AM] ewuvi: agh I'd be terrible!

[12:59:06 AM] ewuvi: like, the worst

[12:59:45 AM] spudman: I'll say this though, I don't think the fights have been bad so far. But having a system is a good idea, even if it's a loose one and is optional.

[1:00:19 AM] spudman: Well, I'll post this bit of conversation in one of the OOG threads, then.

[1:00:25 AM] spudman: see if anyone else is interested.

[1:00:35 AM] ewuvi: too bad you lost that team of ANBU

[1:00:39 AM] ewuvi: they looked like fun

[1:00:52 AM] ewuvi: (is looking back at stuff)

[1:00:54 AM | Edited 1:01:10 AM] spudman: ah, yeah.

[1:01:19 AM] ewuvi: were they in any missions?

[1:02:26 AM] spudman: Lessee....Tiger and Dragon, but that's noncanon at this point, I think. And the Sodegaura AU.

[1:02:36 AM] spudman: That never got finished.

[1:02:39 AM] ewuvi: yeah hmmm

[1:03:08 AM] ewuvi: I'd be willing to pick this back up again, wanna put those three up for adoption?

[1:03:16 AM] ewuvi: looking at their profiles, they seem interesting

[1:03:19 AM] spudman: serbii still hasn't gotten back to me on what she had in mind for Sodegaura.

[1:03:47 AM] spudman: Sure, why not. Gonna copy/paste this whole thing.

[1:03:53 AM] ewuvi: me and serbii can decide what would have happened in sodegaura

[1:04:03 AM] ewuvi: uh....maybe edit it down a bit?

[1:04:18 AM] spudman: but that sounds like work

[1:04:27 AM] ewuvi: I'll do it

[1:04:36 AM] ewuvi: eventually

[1:04:37 AM] spudman: nah, it's okay

[1:04:42 AM] ewuvi: aw hell just copy pasta

[1:04:47 AM] spudman: mmm, pasta

[1:04:53 AM] ewuvi: I don't think I said anything too embarassing...
Thoughts on creating a simple (or complicated) system? Even if it is made, that does not necessarily mean it will be required.
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Re: Expanding the world - NPCs and Locations

Unread postby gman391 » December 6th, 2011, 2:33 am

Hmm a quick and dirty system I was toying with a while ago would obviously need expansion.

Both sides roll d10
then add the relevant modifier for whatever skill being used.
Who ever has the higher number wins the check and can have their attack (If the attacker)
Or their defense (If the defender) succeed. The winner can describe what happens next.

I also had a rock paper system with Tai, Gen and Ninjutsu that add a bonus to the check I think I had it at 5

Tai beats Genjutsu (Taking down people before they can steady the illusion)
Genjutsu beats Ninjutsu (Can't hit what you can't target)
Ninjutsu beats Taijutsu (Sadly you can't normally tank giant fireballs to the face)

Problem with this is that there are a lot more than just those three and it doesn't account for power levels. So it got fairly complicated but I don't remember it off hand
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Re: Expanding the world - NPCs and Locations

Unread postby Phht » December 6th, 2011, 7:07 am

This would probably work better split off as its own thread.

I've thought off and on about an dice system or what have you for this, but largely forgotten what I had pondered at the time. In any case, I think if we looked at it, we should consider something more along the lines of White Wolf or Shadowrun or the like (a single die type system as opposed to a multi-die type system like d20). Not flat out use the system, but borrow elements and kludge them together to get something useful.

--

Since I have the SR4e book on hand, I'll poke some ideas here with it.

The E to S rank skills are unchanged, I think. 6 ranks matches up with the SR4e system just fine. Not sure how to handle +/- though; maybe +/-1 to die totals? The 1-10 system, I have no clue on. Divide by two and give a +1 die total for any resulting 0.5s? Specializations could work the same (though whether it's the 'specialization certificates' I came up with or the declared specializations from the original character sheet... eh, whatever) and add +2 die when the specialization is used

If we tracked damage, the condition monitor from SR4e wouldn't be a bad idea. 8 + (Stamina / 2, rounded up) for physical/lethal damage, 8 + (Intelligence? / 2, rounded up) for stun/non-lethal damage.

Using a jutsu could be the character's stat score (E-S) + jutsu rank (E-S) + 1 if strong vs target (ie raiton vs doton). So someone with C ninjutsu using a B-rank jutsu would be 7d6; if the jutsu was, say, a Katon vs a Fuuton, then it'd be 8d6.

By the same token, say a B-rank taijutsu user attempted to use an A-rank taijutsu move against a S-rank genjutsu user attempting to use a C-rank genjutsu; taijutsu user would have 9d6 vs the genjutsu user's 9d6. If they tie on number of hits, the genjutsu wasn't cast but the taijutsu move didn't connect either. If the taijutsu user won, then he would've hit the genjutsu user before the genjutsu was cast (or vice versa if the genjutsu user had won).

Going to sleep on this now.
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Re: Expanding the world - NPCs and Locations

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » December 6th, 2011, 10:48 am

Personally I'm against setting up a numeric system for this. This is supposed to be an RP game, not a number crunching game. And to be honest, aside from a few things when we first started, everyone seems to be keeping things at least semi-realistic.
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Re: Expanding the world - NPCs and Locations

Unread postby spudman » December 6th, 2011, 5:43 pm

There is something to be said for an element of risk, challenge, and chance in things, though.
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Re: Expanding the world - NPCs and Locations

Unread postby Phht » December 6th, 2011, 8:55 pm

Actually, Tempest, could we get the dice system discussion moved from NPC/Location discussion to its own thread? This seems like it'll be more than brief discussion on the topic.

I can see both sides of the issue. On one hand, keeping it purely RP means it's not a numbers game. OTOH, by having stats/(E-S) ranks (particularly number stats), we already have a numbers game in a manner of speaking and making use of them this way will add some chance to things. And leaving it pure RP means the people running the missions are responsible for every decision (which could causes complaints that the person deliberately had <bad thing> happen to someone's character for whatever reason). Not that I think that would happen here, but I know I've avoided running missions instead of playing in them solely because I didn't want to be responsible for deciding the fate of any character in that mission and how successful or not they were fighting an NPC or completing a task.

The suggestions I provided were more aimed for minimal 'number crunching' with simple rules/modifiers. Also, I'd push for keeping that part invisible, so to speak, and gm/whatever side so the only person dealing with that is the one running things (who can also adjust dice pools with information others wouldn't have) if they wanted to use it. That way those that just want to RP can just RP without worrying about 'number crunching', and if the person running things doesn't want to 'number crunch', they won't have to either.

Honestly, if we were going to add much number crunching to the RP, I'd be calling for a stats overhaul first thing (such as merging Juinjutsu into Fuinjutsu, maybe replacing it with a Hand Seals stat to handle knowledge/skill/speed with the hand seals; or retooling the 1-10 stats to 1-6 or something).
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » December 6th, 2011, 10:50 pm

Discussion moved.
"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Phht » December 7th, 2011, 2:48 am

Thanks.

--

To me, any dice mechanics added should be tools to help someone running a game if needed, rather than the way the game is run. As such, it doesn't need to cover every single base possible (because dice rolls shouldn't be visible to players and thus they can't rules lawyer the results any) and can be very simple.

Having poked at the suggestions I made a bit, I put this up in the drafts on the wiki. It pulls from SR4e, doesn't track damage at all, and still needs more work to cover things that slip my mind. But the core of the concept is there.

I set drafts to be editable by anon/wikidot users instead of just site members, so people can add their own system concepts in their own sections if they wish. Just don't modify someone else's section.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby gman391 » December 7th, 2011, 5:16 am

Well that blows my system out of the water.

I think that we really do need a separate weapons stat because otherwise Sougujutsu gets too broad at least for my liking. But the system doesn't look to clunky (Thankfully the internet means we don't need a pound of d6s to roll)
As for the Taijutsu physical power thing. I'm wondering if giving a bonus on your rank would work better than physical power
So Genin get 1d6 Chunnin 2d6 ect to measure how practiced you are.

But I'm curious about Spec Jonin's as they have jonin level in one stat so would that mean they get jonin rolls for that stat or...?
Stealth to crib from other RPGs is probably a combination of Int and Dexterity although we want to be careful not to make Int the one stat you need to be a good ninja and forget the others...

Hmm have to think on it.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Phht » December 7th, 2011, 7:01 am

(Made some changes to the skills/combat sections in light of your post, gman)

Sougujutsu only covers non-melee weapons (plus puppets). Taijutsu covers melee weapons. (or say, hitting someone with a closed war fan like Temari has). Thrown kunai - sougujutsu. Using kunai in melee for stabbing/cutting - taijutsu. I forgot to cover weapons, but I think they'd be Tai (or Sougu) + D-rank tehnique, unless you're using a special technique in which case it falls under the Tai/Sougu + technique rank option.

Actually, the cool part about the system is that rank is completely unimportant. You could be S-rank in a stat, using S-rank jutsu in that field, and still be considered a Genin rank-wise. Getting a promotion doesn't affect your stats any, and thus doesn't influence the dice mechanics any. I'd say that any experience or the like would be reflected within the stat rank for a skill group, rather than being bonus dice. Plus, I can't see someone being considered A-rank or S-rank (for example) in a stat without having experience to back it up.

Hm. Sougujutsu + Flexibility could work for stealth when not using jutsu. The problem with trying to avoid overusing certain stats is that we have so few, and some seem really confined in scope. Where can I use Chakra Capacity in a skill check, for instance? Well, chakra sensing could be Control + Capacity maybe. Plus, something like Stamina doesn't get much use, though if the system did damage tracking it'd be used there for sure. Another problem with this system currently is that it doesn't really handle bloodline/clan-jutsu because that stuff isn't ranked.

--

To be fair, I could come up with ways to use Chakra Control, Chakra Capacity, Stamina, etc, but that'd add clunkiness and unnecessary number crunching to the system. My goal with the system is not so a person can use it to run their game, but so they can use it to spice up aspects of their game with random chance if they wish (tool vs crutch). As a result, some stats end up under-utilized by the system. But given that it should be RP first, stats/munchkining/dice distant second, I won't be too upset if it remains that way.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby gman391 » December 7th, 2011, 7:02 pm

Fair points. I can understand why you put weapons the way you did. I just feel that Taijutsu and Weapons are more distinct than that. Simply because of the training involved. You can do things with a sword or a spear that you can never apply to to hand to hand and vice versa. But that's me being nit-picky.

I would think that countering a taijutsu attack would be a combination of taijutsu and speed.

Capacity could be used for a sort of mana system if we did make it more numbers oriented but I don't think anyone wants to do that.

As you said this should be RP first and number crunching a distant second.
Although as I recall the Authorlord did make a conversion for Shadowrun Mechanics to Naruto somewhere. Maybe look at that for ideas?
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Phht » March 8th, 2012, 2:22 am

Long belated: The Authorlord's conversion is a bit too number-crunchy and fitting Narutoverse to work in the SR4e ruleset. Which means, unfortunately, it's not much use as far as I could see when checking it out back in December.

--

Now, I've been poking at the dice system I proposed and I still have no way to handle special techniques of, say, Jyuken or the Kaguya bone bloodline. I'm currently thinking of just doing Tai+Tai for those techniques because we have no real way to pseudo-rank them. It would mean that the strength of the technique increases with the skill of the user (and thus a Hyuuga using a Jyuken technique would almost always have a larger dice pool than their Taijutsu opponent), but would also mean that they're basically all equal.
Spoiler: show
Looking at the stats for Neji at the time of the Chunin Exams (DB1, covers roughly Vol 1-13, ends roughly around the time the Suna-Oto Invasion kicks off), he's Taijutsu "3.5". By DB3 (covers roughly Vol28-43, ends around where Sasuke declares his intent to destroy Konoha after Itachi's death), Neji is Taijutsu "4.5"ish. However, Hinata is only Taijutsu "3.5" at the time of DB3, and I doubt she had a half point or more boost in Taijutsu by the time she makes her declaration to Naruto in vol 47 (though she did have a .5-.75 boost between Vol 13 and start of time skip at the end of Vol 27). So it's likely that "3.5" or higher is all that's needed for Kaiten/64 Palms/Juuho/Air Palm. Which accounts for all but one of the manga jutsu.

If we set the outermost line as S-rank, and the 0.5 point as E-rank, with the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th lines as D-A, 3.5 would be mid-B. So we could set all Jyuuken as B-rank techniques for purposes of the system. This would make them fairly powerful as a Genin or Chunin, but would lag behind the top techniques of other styles at the top end -- such as Goken's A-rank Asakujaku or the possible-S-rank Hirotora -- or on par with the techniques such as the Inuzuka's B-rank Garouga or the Akimichi's B-rank Choudan Bakugeki. A flat B-rank for their techniques would place them above the Drunken Fist style (C-rank accoring to databooks) or the Rankanken Ryuu used by Jiroubou of the Sound Four (also C-rank according to databooks). If most styles cap out or are simply ranked at C-rank (which I would expect means there's no techniques that rate a B-rank or higher), then Jyuken would be clearly better than most styles when special techniques are pulled out.

Unfortunately, there's no such help with the Kaguya bloodline, as Kimmimaro's stats are Tai 5. Maybe rate them B-rank as well for simplicity?
Mangekyo Sharigan/EMS techniques, I'm just going to exclude from the system all together because they're so broken.

I'd like to make this an useable (and fairly balanced) tool for people running missions to use, so comments/suggestions are extremely wanted.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby gman391 » March 8th, 2012, 4:36 am

Hmm for simplicity that works yes. Wish there was someway to add weapon specializations to Tai though. But that could just be because my character is a lot better with his swords than anything else.... :halo

Still what you have should work. I agree on just banning Mangekyo Sharingan because it's so Hax
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Phht » March 8th, 2012, 1:47 pm

No so much banning as passing the buck on the issue back to the person running the thread a Mangekyo technique is used in. ;)

Having kenjutsu listed as a specialization in one (of 2) area(s) of your (wiki) character sheet gives a +1 to your rolls using kenjutsu. An honest to god +1 to die total bonus (thus 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6 would be the results available for each die). And I thought I had armed attacks being D-rank versus unarmed E-rank when attacking, but maybe I changed my mind on that at some point.... Ah, Jyuken is listed as D-rank standard strike. And I mentioned making weapon attacks Tai/Sougu + D-rank in the thread, so unless anyone has an issue with weapons being slightly more dangerous to a target than unarmed strikes (it's 1 die (E-rank) vs 2 dice (D-rank) added to the pool)...
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby gman391 » March 8th, 2012, 6:37 pm

Hmm...Well alright I can't complain now can I?
Still we'll see how it goes I guess
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Phht » March 9th, 2012, 10:41 pm

One thing I'd to get is feedback from people, especially those that don't want to use the system at all. If nothing else, I'd like to make sure it's fair enough that characters don't get an advantage when the tools are being used compared to otherwise. Because if it's unbalanced like that, then the tools become a problem instead of an aid. :(

--

Someone contacted me a few days ago on wikidot offering help with the RP, and while the RP set-up isn't really something they can help much with improving, there are some things I've changed/added on the front page as a result of the discussion, giving a bit more detail about the type of RP in case someone wanders across the wiki and a bit more regarding the "Getting Started" section of the front page.

One of the things they brought up was if there was jutsu creation system. As I was writing the reply, I was commenting on how I might go about it if I were making one. Then I noticed what I was doing and just decided to make a simplistic system for ninjutsu. I'd like feedback on improving it, but I'd like to keep it more simple than, say, gman's Scholomance system. ;)
Spoiler: show
It's up in the drafts section. It is simplistic and I'm not very happy with it at the moment.

For one, Goukakyuu no Jutsu (Great Fireball) is Close range, but otherwise seems like the same ranked Endan, so I'd need to kick up the strength to place it at C-rank. But the reference pictures for the two jutsu makes it look weaker than the Endan.

I'm pondering if I should double the points for strength/range and increase the totals for each rank so 0-1 would be E, 2-3 D, 4-5 C, 6-7 B, 8-9 A, 10+ S. That might allow me to shrink the strength chart down to Low/Med/High again. Maybe also increase the High Chakra Cost amount as well.
--

The other thing that came to mind while I was responding to the person was that we've had 6-8ish people training heavily for two months. How is that affecting their stats and should we have any guidelines in place on covering stat increases in general?
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby gman391 » March 10th, 2012, 3:22 am

Simple my...extremely large foot.

We should have a system in place to cover increasing stats but at the same time probably a cap on what you can do at a given level. Having a Kage strong ninja as a genin isn't something anyone wants. As it is I dunno maybe some sort of system were the higher your level the more you have to work to get that last point
Going from E-ranked in Sougjutsu takes say a year while going from A Rank to S rank takes 10 or something.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Aldraia Dragonsong » March 10th, 2012, 3:11 pm

Honestly, I feel kind of leery about having a system like this at all. I like just winging it as a nearly-pure roleplay. (Also, my apologies to the fine folks in the mission I was running; school decided to beat me up for lunch money and recovery is slow because it keeps coming back for more...)
I do not want to spoil your brainstorming, but you did say you wanted to hear from people... :shy:
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » March 10th, 2012, 3:18 pm

Agreed with Aldraia. This is more fun as an RP thing than an actual system-based game. Because in the end, each person running the mission has final say on what happens in what order. But formalizing it like this would make it much clunkier, harder to play, and make it more like work than like having fun IMO. Because then we'd have to come up with some kind of experience points system or some way to keep track of how our characters are improving, we'd have to set up rules for *everything*, not just combat, and to be honest, I really don't feel that it needs any of that.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby serbii » March 10th, 2012, 7:07 pm

As people can probably tell I've been falling out of this RP a lot recently and have mostly lost interest.
In all honesty I don't really have an opinion as I don't see myself participating much, especially as I'm heading overseas in 2 weeks and am looking at 3-4 months where the longest I'll be in the one place is less than a week.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby spudman » March 11th, 2012, 4:40 pm

Tempy, it's been mentioned more than once that the system would merely be an option for anyone running a game thread. They would be the ones doing the "work" if they so choose.

It's simply for those that want a system to decide which attacks actually connect or not rather than just deciding on their own whims. There is no line in the sand to cross on this issue and it is not an EITHER/OR option. There's room for everyone to be happy.

Either way, I feel that there's always room for fudging things and collaboration if it makes for a better story/more fun game.

As for stat advancement, I don't think anyone was suggesting a full system with exp. points, etc. More like this much time training=this many points, and a cap on things.

That said, I personally don't think we need anything formal for that. My thought is such things can be decided on a case by case basis. If a person could get one or two other players to endorse a new character sheet that might work.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Aldraia Dragonsong » March 13th, 2012, 8:23 pm

Tempy, it's been mentioned more than once that the system would merely be an option for anyone running a game thread. They would be the ones doing the "work" if they so choose.

It's simply for those that want a system to decide which attacks actually connect or not rather than just deciding on their own whims. There is no line in the sand to cross on this issue and it is not an EITHER/OR option. There's room for everyone to be happy.
The problem is that once you have a system, some people will like using the system and others will hate using it, so eventually the roleplaying group gets essentially split into two groups that rarely interact: people who use the system and people who do not use the system. Well, that is admittedly not guaranteed to occur, but I worry that it could.
That said, if it is merely a GM decision-making tool, that is not so likely to occur. My objections are lessened, though I still have some reservations. Not quite sure why, though; will get back to you on that if I ever figure it out.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby spudman » March 13th, 2012, 10:42 pm

The problem is that once you have a system, some people will like using the system and others will hate using it, so eventually the roleplaying group gets essentially split into two groups that rarely interact: people who use the system and people who do not use the system.
More than not so likely, pretty much no chance of that happening.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Phht » March 14th, 2012, 1:08 am

Aldraia: Sorry I haven't responded sooner, but something left me frustrating and stewing over not being able to properly respond to the source of the frustration, so I took a few days doing stuff to take my mind off the issue.

Since it's been a while and not clearly stated, I'll list what I consider the design philosophy/rules I'm working on this under.
Spoiler: show
  • Minimal number-crunching
    • As part of this, I try to keep the dice pool for a check small. Currently S-rank/10 skill + S-rank/10 would give 12d6 before other bonuses (Byakugan/Sharingan can take that to 14d6 in some instances). Conversely, E-rank/1-2 + E-rank/1-2 could be 2d6. (Unranked/0 would drop it to 1d6 or even 0d6. :) ) I'd like to keep it at 15d6 max if possible.
    • There are no "hard-coded" penalties. This means that your core dice pool for any given check will always be the same for that check. You just might not get any bonuses above and beyond the core pool.
    • Given that there are no defined penalties, bonuses become more important to keep balanced (and to a minimum). This is more true of bonuses that add to the total for each die, and currently there is exactly one thing that gives such a bonus (which I'm pondering altering or dropping). Bonuses that give plus to each die increase the chance of success (from 1/3 of the possibilities to 1/2 with just +1), and with minimizing dice pool, the increase in success per die would be more unbalancing than adding more dice to the pool.
  • GM/Narrator/Whatever use only
    • The only person that'd deal with the tools is the one in charge of keeping the thread/plot moving (GM/Narrator/whatever you want to refer to them as). This means that any player that wants to do pure RP participating in the mission/whatever would never have to deal with any dice system or so forth.
    • This also means that the players shouldn't be seeing any of the checks/rolls. As a result, rules don't have to be ironclad and cover every possible option in case of rules lawyers.
  • Completely Optional
    • Given that some pure RPers also run missions instead of just participate, use of the tools by the person running the mission is completely optional. (If 2 people are co-running it, they can decide how much/little tools are used. If there's no clear person in charge, tools aren't used.)
    • The tools should be fairly loose so the person using them can make on the fly bonuses/penalties or check decisions as they feel necessary.
    • As part of the vagueness of the rules and to keep it from becoming a system (that would need rules covering stuff), certain aspects are not handled by the tools. This includes damage/hp/health and mp/chakra "pools". There are also no damage values for jutsu or attacks. The Mangekyo Sharingan abilities are right out as well.
  • (not necessarily the dice tools but....) Anything system or other added needs to be weighed versus how achievable it is without intruding on those that just want to RP. That means it has to be completely optional (or not connected into actual play) and cannot be something that gives an advantage to those that (don't) use the system. Otherwise, it's not really optional, is it?
I'm pretty sure that covers what I keep in mind while trying to come up with the tools. And why I'd like feedback on its balance from even those that don't want to use it. If it's not balanced well enough or its skewed too much, then it'd end up being kinda obvious when the tools were used, which would intrude on the pure RPers' experience. I'll put an example at the end of the post of how I see it should work, and what the players should see of it.

--

gman, the Scholomance system for creating spells is many things, and simple is not one I'd really ascribe to it. So I was taking a little poke at the system you came up with (and its revisions) as being more complex/number-crunchy than I'd prefer the jutsu ranking system to be. Also, your system doesn't care how powerful the technique is, merely how much mana it takes to cast. This system doesn't care how much chakra it takes to cast (except possibly if it's enough to effect the ranking?), just how powerful it is.

Of course, I hold the hope that the system is kept low numbers enough that I could in the future possibly use the Control+Capacity stats against the jutsu's point total somehow as a way to determine if someone could theoretically safely use the jutsu. But that's not even under consideration in more that wishful thinking until the system gets hammered out.

--

On the subject of stat increase stuff, I did use "guidelines" specifically for a reason.
A general rule, principle, or piece of advice.
My emphasis is on the last part of the definition because advice means it's flexible. Rules or systems tend not to be flexible and it's not so easy to discuss stepping outside the bounds placed by the rules/system.

The guidelines might be along the lines of "going up in this section of the scale is fairly credible depending on training time over x-ish amount of time, while going A->S in the same time frame or C/B->S might have you checking to see if it's credible first." Basically, advice on how to provide credible increases without actually having rules or caps in place. I mean, being Genin past certain levels would likely be less credible (from a stats point of view) but can be waved with credible RP reasons. But Chunin+ I don't see a reason to require pushing to SpJounin/Jounin after that point due to power levels. After all, there are plenty of reasons why someone might not go for Special Jounin or Jounin and be content to stay Chunin.

--

Okay, I did promise to put an example for Aldraia. I'll spoiler it so this does not get too (much) big(ger).
Spoiler: show
We'll use the set-up of Tempest and Aldraia are fighting an enemy Jounin and I'm the one running the mission.

Tempest posts first and has Itsuki perform a Katon jutsu at the enemy ninja. Aldraia posts after that having her character send a volley of senbon slightly off to the side of Itsuki's attack to catch the enemy if he attempts to dodge.

This'll require two checks. Katon (Ninjutsu) vs (enemy) and Senbon attack (Sougujutsu) vs (enemy).

Since RP-wise Tempest goes first, I'll handle his check first. I need to decide what the enemy does in loose terms first. He could dodge the attack, or attempt to counter it (which affects what is used for the check). Since I want this enemy to seem like he earned his rank and knows what he's doing, I decide that he's going to counter the jutsu. Now all I need to know is an idea of how he intends to counter it. This instance, it'd likely be Nin/Gen/Sougujusu, maybe a seal of some sort. The ninja is a ninjutsu adept, so he decides to use a Suiton. He estimates the strength of the opposing jutsu and decides to chance going one rank lower in an attempt to conserve chakra. So the check is Ninjutsu + x rank vs Ninjutsu + x-1 rank + 1 (due to Suiton being strong vs Katon). This would be equal dice pools if they're same Ninjutsu rank.

There are 3 results possible: Itsuki wins (more hits), Itsuki loses (less hits), the two stalemate (equal hits). If the guy was just dodging, stalemate would basically be treated as if Itsuki lost. In this instance, let's say we get a stalemate. This could mean that the ninja's move directly countered the jutsu, or maybe forced Itsuki to end his jutsu too early for the attack to affect the ninja, or maybe the attacks barely missed each other and both ninja had to dodge out of the way. Any number of things. Since we have to deal with Aldraia's move, I decide that the last option is what happened.

Now we have the senbon volley coming in, and the guy just dodged the Katon. I decide that the senbon came in quick enough that the guy doesn't have time to attempt a counter. So it's Sougujutsu + D-rank vs Taijutsu + Flexibility. Here Aldraia manages to have great luck, and beats the enemy check by three hits. She got a success, and a pretty good one. Given that the ninja is supposed to be good enough to earn the rank he has, I decide to try a Kawarimi check (Ninjutsu + E-rank) vs Aldraia's result. He still fails, but only by one this time.

--
What the players see (minus the detail/etc that would be involved in an actual mission):

Enemy ninja fires off a fast Suiton technique that misses the Katon but will hit Itsuki, but the ninja is forced to dodge the Katon. Having focused on countering the ninjutsu technique, the ninja doesn't see in the incoming senbon volley until it's too late and gets pincushioned.

A second later, he poofs into smoke and turns out to be a pincushioned log. He's spotted a couple meters further back with a few senbon sticking out of his leg, seeming to be impaired somewhat due to the hits. He pulls out the senbon before calling up three clones of unknown type. One charges at Itsuki while the remaining two go after Miyu. The enemy ninja starts moving away from the fight as fast as his leg can manage.

--

At this point, Tempest can RP his reaction/likely-dodge and respond to the charging clone, Aldraia can RP her side of things, and neither one had to deal with the dice tools at all.
Does that help any, Aldraia?
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Aldraia Dragonsong » March 15th, 2012, 4:00 am

Yes, that does help; thank you, Phht.
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