Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Out of play chat and commentary on the game.

Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby gman391 » March 15th, 2012, 6:32 am

gman, the Scholomance system for creating spells is many things, and simple is not one I'd really ascribe to it. So I was taking a little poke at the system you came up with (and its revisions) as being more complex/number-crunchy than I'd prefer the jutsu ranking system to be. Also, your system doesn't care how powerful the technique is, merely how much mana it takes to cast. This system doesn't care how much chakra it takes to cast (except possibly if it's enough to effect the ranking?), just how powerful it is.
Ah well....point taken. True it's ridiculously number crunchy but that's how casting works in the game. Number of mitigators vs spell cost. I can understand wanting to avoid all that math. Until Serbii used her arcane mastery of spread sheets it took forever to calculate spells. As is, I think that if you hammer out a system it'd be good and I'd probably use it. The RNG is a cruel deity but one that makes things interesting.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Phht » March 15th, 2012, 9:07 pm

Ah well....point taken. True it's ridiculously number crunchy but that's how casting works in the game. Number of mitigators vs spell cost. I can understand wanting to avoid all that math.
To be fair, rank tends to approximate the amount of chakra needed for the technique because high rank tends to require more chakra than lower rank jutsu.

I put up a version two. It triples range/strength/seal-sequence values and changed several of the "Other" section modifiers. Multiple Copies, for example, is now split between 2-6, 7-12, 13-18, and 19+ with increasing values for each. I might adjust the values for the multiple copies a bit as I try out new canon jutsu on the system.
Spoiler: show
I did adjust the seal sequence values to 0/3/5 from 0/3/6. Mainly because the point total for Rasenshuriken hit 21 points (and Chakra Cap + Chakra Con would only hit 20 max), so I adjusted the seal sequence value slightly. Though some digging showed that the ability to throw the Rasenshuriken only apparently appeared while in Sage/Biju mode, so I made two versions and put the seal sequence values back to normal. Then I added mention at the top for the v2 system that there was a cap of 20 points for jutsu usable by normal ninja, with that able to be exceeded through use of Senjutsu or Biju modes. (as a note: S-rank is 15+ points).

My next sticking point is Housenka no Jutsu and Housenka Tsumabeni no Jutsu. Housenka is C-rank, but my initial totals resulted in it being D-rank instead. I slapped the "Focused" modifier on it for a +3 that bumped it into C-rank. Not sure I like that solution though. Housenka Tsumabeni is +3 points above Housenka due to the increase in fireball count, so it's currently at B-rank (C-rank prior to the modifier being added).
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby gman391 » March 15th, 2012, 10:03 pm

Hmm looks alright, let me try something

Kaminari no Ken would be a form of Ninjutsu yes? (Covers your sword in lightning)
hmm close range (On the swords) +0
High powered +6
Shape and Nature is required so +5
Elemental +3
High Chakra Cost +1
Material (Needs swords) -1
So
0+6+5+3+1-1=13

So...overall I have a
13 points placing this jutsu as an A Ranked...and I sort of thought of it as a B-rank. However this is pretty much designed to make up for his lack of elemental jutsu while wielding swords so maybe it fits. Still seems to be something off. Maybe up the material bonus to -2 or 3 rather than one?
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Phht » March 16th, 2012, 5:07 am

To be honest, things like that make me confused because of how Kishi decides them.

Canon:
Hien - Asuma's wind chakra move using his trench knives? Taijutsu!
Chidori Katana - Sasuke's move where he channels the Chidori into his sword? Ninjutsu! (and a rank lower than Chidori itself)
Dance of the Crescent Moon - Hayate's kenjutsu move he used against Baki? Ninjutsu!
The various bloodline moves Kimimmaro uses? Taijutsu!

So to be completely honest, I have no freaking idea whether to consider it taijutsu or ninjutsu. Maybe if the move is not part of a fighting style (like Hien and Kimimmaro's technique would almost certainly be), Kishi made them ninjutsu. Which would make classification simpler.

--

Actually, High Chakra Cost in v2 is +2, not +1. And I missed changing the seal sequence back to 0/3/6, so it'd actually be 15 points currently if ninjutsu. Hm. Maybe bump the strength down to Medium, which would lower the total to 12 (A-rank). This would put it above Sasuke's Chidori Katana move (10 pt B-rank). A -2 material required penalty would drop the total into B-rank range and make the technique on par with the Chidori Katana.

OR! With Chidori Katana, I only required Nature (with the idea that shape is technically handled by the sword), so we'd have 0+6+3+3+2-1=13pts. In which case, dropping strength to Medium would put it at 10 pts and a clear B-rank on par with the Chidori Katana.

I can't easily increase the material required penalty, because the Elemental Bunshin group is C-rank (based on Mizu Bunshin being canon C-rank), and increasing the penalty would drop them to D-rank at the moment. Maybe I could do a +/- strength modifier that gives +/- 1 modifier to offset a -2 material required penalty. Hiraishin is okay with a -2 penalty, as it'd still be 15+ total.

I'm pretty sure I need another revision of this at the very least. Housenka no Jutsu fell 2 short of its rank before I tossed "Focused" on it to raise it to the proper rank. Katon: Goukakyuu no Jutsu is the same rank as Katon: Endan, but appears weaker (though maybe it's due to Goukakyuu is more of a DoT style fire technique and Endan is more of an alpha strike style fire technique?). Tempest's Kienzan is listed as A-rank, but my first try at ranking it via the system would've placed it as S-rank (15-18 points).
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby gman391 » March 16th, 2012, 7:02 am

I had actually completely forgotten about the Chidori Katana but when you put it like that...well now I just feel silly.

Still Kishi does seem kind of random. Off hand the only explanation I can piece together from the examples is that it's taijutsu if it has a solid weapon enhanced by chakra. Unless you're Sasuke in which case it's Ninjutsu because you're Sasuke and that's all you know how to do. Hayate's Dance of the Crescent Moon involves shadow clones so that's why it's ninjutsu.

Of course then you have the Raikage's Nintajustu. AKA
"Lightning doesn't work this way but I'll make it that way by being awesome." Which I don't even know how the heck it works.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby MEKristian » March 16th, 2012, 10:14 am

Sasuke's been shown to use his "make things lightning-y" technique with things besides his sword.

Asuma has not.
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby Phht » March 25th, 2012, 3:50 am

Sasuke's been shown to use his "make things lightning-y" technique with things besides his sword.
Actually, from what I've seen of descriptions of his techniques, the only time he has channeled a Chidori through a weapon is his sword. Chidori Senbon is him shaping a Chidori into senbon shapes. Chidori Eisou is him extending a Chidori out in a sorta spear shape to hit a target further out than the Chidori's usual range.

In any case, I added a strength +/-1 modifier and upped the material required penalty to -2. So technically the power choices are now: Low, Low +1, Medium -1, Medium, Medium +1, High -1, High, and High +1.

Examples affected: Hiraishin no Jutsu, Elemental Bunshin, Katon: Endan (Endan and Dai Endan), Chidori/Raikiri (Chidori Katana, also renamed to Chidorigatana to be closer to canon name), Katon: Housenka no Jutsu. Kienzan is now able to hit A-rank in the system, using Med Strength w/ -1 strength modifier (14pt total) and S-rank by using +1 strength modifier instead (16 pt total), though I could just leave off the modifier and having a 15pt total and still S-rank.

I've also added a Chakra Flow modifier. Chakra Flow would be used for things like Asuma channeling wind through his knives, Sasuke's Chidorigatana, A's lightning armor, or Itachi's Housenka Tsumabeni no Jutsu.

gman, this means your technique would now be: Close range, Medium powered, Nature required, Elemental Jutsu, High Chakra Cost, Chakra Flow, Material (Needs swords). 0+3+3+3+2+2-2 = 11. Still on par with Chidorigatana.

--

Dice Tools received a small change, removing the +2 bonus for advanced level specialization in something. Very few people (that I'm aware of) have taken advantage of the specializations stuff, so it unfairly gives a sizable bonus to the few of us (including me) that did make use of it (67% [3, 4, 5, 6 would be hits] vs 50% [4, 5, 6 would be hits] chance to hit per die, over the regular 33% [5, 6 would be hits] chance for non-specialists).
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Re: Numbers vs pure RP discussion

Unread postby gman391 » March 25th, 2012, 4:26 am

Ah cool man thanks for all your work.
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