Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
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Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
Updated Sonic mitigations to the new system.
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world."
----Jack Layton
----Jack Layton
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gman391 - Posts: 3288
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
To belatedly answer Ewuvi's questions:
For the first, we must await Slamu's judgement; the effects of the stats are up to him.
For the second, it makes no difference, as sorcery's costs are not affected by whether it is used on the living or not. Energy is energy, no matter where it is.
For the first, we must await Slamu's judgement; the effects of the stats are up to him.
For the second, it makes no difference, as sorcery's costs are not affected by whether it is used on the living or not. Energy is energy, no matter where it is.
Random Scholomance Quote of However Long It Takes Me To Get Bored of the Last One:
“Ancell: respecting personal boundaries to the detriment of his friends since 1993.” ~bookworm702
“Ancell: respecting personal boundaries to the detriment of his friends since 1993.” ~bookworm702
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Aldraia Dragonsong - Posts: 1142
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
Matter is matter no matter what it is, but we still added the alchemy on the living cost because killing people was way too easy. A reasonably small change in temperature (5C?), certainly less than one step (300C) in the current system will overheat a brain and can cause permanent damage. Not to mention what happens to your proteins.
We nerfed alchemy as it was too easy to kill with it, I think sorcery should have the same cost.
We nerfed alchemy as it was too easy to kill with it, I think sorcery should have the same cost.
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serbii - Posts: 4584
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
Well I agree and if there are sufficient votes for it, I would add in Alchemy's wound system. Aldraia's point is that as currently written there is no extra Sorcery cost on the living. This is of course open to change.
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world."
----Jack Layton
----Jack Layton
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gman391 - Posts: 3288
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
I vote to add in the wound system for sorcery on the living. Should we use the 'steps' in sorcery on top of the wound cost, or...?
edit: due to the steps thing, and for the sake of needing only one sort of imbuement, how about the 'steps' are reduced to 1/10th (or maybe even less?) of their original when directly changing a human system?
edit: due to the steps thing, and for the sake of needing only one sort of imbuement, how about the 'steps' are reduced to 1/10th (or maybe even less?) of their original when directly changing a human system?
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ewuvi - Posts: 3879
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
I favor the reduction of step size over adding in the wound system; in my head, organic matter is harder to affect because it changes itself in a way inorganic matter does not, a difficulty that increases with how much you want to affect it, but my head does not accept that rationale for energy. A straighter difficulty spike owing to, I do not know, needing to work around all the various energy types flying around in a body, makes more sense to me.
...I realize that could have been more coherent; in my defense, I am in the final stages of migraine recovery right now.
...I realize that could have been more coherent; in my defense, I am in the final stages of migraine recovery right now.
Random Scholomance Quote of However Long It Takes Me To Get Bored of the Last One:
“Ancell: respecting personal boundaries to the detriment of his friends since 1993.” ~bookworm702
“Ancell: respecting personal boundaries to the detriment of his friends since 1993.” ~bookworm702
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Aldraia Dragonsong - Posts: 1142
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
All right, we are in the middle of going over a large number of things, but we wanted to ask your opinion on Sorcery while we work on the other things, as we made a large number of changes.
The rewritten Sorcery subsystem is below; commentary on why it was done this way is after.
The "volume affected" category was removed because in using joules, affecting a greater volume will cost more, so charging for volume a second time seemed unfair.
Energy type costs were limiting; removing them allowed for energy types which we did not think of to be used. The equations provided are merely the ones we think will be most likely needed.
Joules were used because that way there is only one step size definition; the old way was extremely clunky. Additionally, they allow for things like specific heat and electrical resistance to play a role, which should hopefully limit the issues that were raised regarding Sorcery having too low a cost to achieve fatal results. Should this prove insufficient, we have a backup plan almost finished.
Please test this out, see if any issues remain, and share your thoughts regardless of whether you find any.
The rewritten Sorcery subsystem is below; commentary on why it was done this way is after.
Spoiler: show
Energy type costs were limiting; removing them allowed for energy types which we did not think of to be used. The equations provided are merely the ones we think will be most likely needed.
Joules were used because that way there is only one step size definition; the old way was extremely clunky. Additionally, they allow for things like specific heat and electrical resistance to play a role, which should hopefully limit the issues that were raised regarding Sorcery having too low a cost to achieve fatal results. Should this prove insufficient, we have a backup plan almost finished.
Please test this out, see if any issues remain, and share your thoughts regardless of whether you find any.
Random Scholomance Quote of However Long It Takes Me To Get Bored of the Last One:
“Ancell: respecting personal boundaries to the detriment of his friends since 1993.” ~bookworm702
“Ancell: respecting personal boundaries to the detriment of his friends since 1993.” ~bookworm702
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Aldraia Dragonsong - Posts: 1142
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
Can you give an example of conversion and non-conversion spells? That sort of confuses me.
Also; while the old way was sort of clunky, and this seems more 'clear' in theory, applying it is probably going to be *way* more complex, to the point of being effectively useless. I actually prefer the old method.
Energy type restrictions actually remain basically the same with this, while making it a completely different system compared to the other ones.
The problem of it being 'too easy' to do sorcery on living people is also not fixed by this system. I think adding another qualifier like is in alchemy would *really* be the best way to go about it, or reducing the strength of each power step- less work for you, and the system is still relatively easy to work with.
I appreciate the effort you went through to do this, but I think that the simplest solution would really be the best solution for our 'sorcery troubles.'
Also; while the old way was sort of clunky, and this seems more 'clear' in theory, applying it is probably going to be *way* more complex, to the point of being effectively useless. I actually prefer the old method.
Energy type restrictions actually remain basically the same with this, while making it a completely different system compared to the other ones.
The problem of it being 'too easy' to do sorcery on living people is also not fixed by this system. I think adding another qualifier like is in alchemy would *really* be the best way to go about it, or reducing the strength of each power step- less work for you, and the system is still relatively easy to work with.
I appreciate the effort you went through to do this, but I think that the simplest solution would really be the best solution for our 'sorcery troubles.'
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ewuvi - Posts: 3879
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
I agree, this seems a lot more difficult to use.
While it addresses the issue of equivalent energies - basically giving the categories in joules rather than their respective, more commonly used units, it makes sorcery basically unusable without googling physics texts, looking up heat capacities, activation energies and basically maths.
I think actually casting anything with it would be fiddly and take more maths than you realise and the whole where you're drawing the energy from would be rather complex and difficult to justify. And the fact is, applying this seems confusing, especially the conversion. I know what these units actually are in terms of what's physically happening and am coming at this with a physics degree, and I still look at say, using chemical energy from the air to make force lightning and go '...yeah, too much effort'. Look up the electrical resistance of air, look up the amount of energy you can get from tearing apart nitrogen molecules (which is sort of alchemy anyway) etc etc.
To be honest I always saw sorcery as mana being converted to energy. So yes, you are making energy - from mana, not from nothing. That made it straightforward, this kept you from manipulating matter for a lot of your energy. The reason you can't do it with alchemy and make matter from nothing is the cost is so, so, so much higher.
1 gram of mass is equivalent to 8.98755179 × 10^13 joules
Note to the power of THIRTEEN, that is a big number.
Theoretically it is possible to make matter from magic but the cost is so phenomenal it's not practical in terms of throwing mana at it.
Uh yeah. So that on top of what ewuvi said. I think what we have, while not perfect, is better as this seems incredibly difficult to actually apply.
Sorry? >_< Thank you for your work and efforts!
While it addresses the issue of equivalent energies - basically giving the categories in joules rather than their respective, more commonly used units, it makes sorcery basically unusable without googling physics texts, looking up heat capacities, activation energies and basically maths.
I think actually casting anything with it would be fiddly and take more maths than you realise and the whole where you're drawing the energy from would be rather complex and difficult to justify. And the fact is, applying this seems confusing, especially the conversion. I know what these units actually are in terms of what's physically happening and am coming at this with a physics degree, and I still look at say, using chemical energy from the air to make force lightning and go '...yeah, too much effort'. Look up the electrical resistance of air, look up the amount of energy you can get from tearing apart nitrogen molecules (which is sort of alchemy anyway) etc etc.
To be honest I always saw sorcery as mana being converted to energy. So yes, you are making energy - from mana, not from nothing. That made it straightforward, this kept you from manipulating matter for a lot of your energy. The reason you can't do it with alchemy and make matter from nothing is the cost is so, so, so much higher.
1 gram of mass is equivalent to 8.98755179 × 10^13 joules
Note to the power of THIRTEEN, that is a big number.
Theoretically it is possible to make matter from magic but the cost is so phenomenal it's not practical in terms of throwing mana at it.
Uh yeah. So that on top of what ewuvi said. I think what we have, while not perfect, is better as this seems incredibly difficult to actually apply.
Sorry? >_< Thank you for your work and efforts!
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serbii - Posts: 4584
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
Testing continues, problems continue to arise and be resolved, you know this dance by now.
As a note, the Headmaster still has the ability to veto spells if he or she feels like it (even if they worked before) and generally decree that things work some way other than that outlined here. Magic is a fickle ally, and there are more factors at work than we know...
Changes from the previous version:
Subsystem titles are bolded and underlined, with each subsystem placed in a separate spoiler to make it easy to look at just the parts of the system you need today. Category names are bolded, and each option in a category has its name in italics.
And now I present... the Scholomance Spell Creation System, Version 4!
As always, I want to thank Aldraia so much for all her help and hard work going into this system. Couldn't do it without you. -gman391
Cost Calculation
Before determining a spell’s cost, you have to define the target and the effect, as many of the variables depend on these. How you choose to define the target is as important as what the target is; for example, if the target is Shannon and the effect is “changes target’s hand into a bird’s claw”, then you define variables like Size according to Shannon’s size, but if the target is Shannon’s hand and the effect is “changes target into a bird’s claw”, then you define Size according to the size of Shannon’s hand. The spells do the same thing, but may have differing costs because they were defined differently.
Casting a spell always costs at least one point of mana. This “initiation cost” cannot be mitigated away. To determine whether you have overmitigated, if doing so is necessary, do not consider this point in the spell’s cost. Multiplier costs do not multiply initiation cost; it is added at the very end.
Sorcery
Alchemy
Enchantment
Conjuration:
General Modifiers
Thaumaturgy
Mitigation
For convenience (mostly mine), a quick just-the-numbers outline of cost calculation is provided here.
School-Dependent Costs
Sorcery
Alchemy
Enchantment
Conjuration
General Costs
Thaumaturgy
For All Spells:
Initiation Cost: Pay one point of mana; this cannot be mitigated away.
Questions, comments, complaints?
As a note, the Headmaster still has the ability to veto spells if he or she feels like it (even if they worked before) and generally decree that things work some way other than that outlined here. Magic is a fickle ally, and there are more factors at work than we know...
Changes from the previous version:
Spoiler: show
And now I present... the Scholomance Spell Creation System, Version 4!
As always, I want to thank Aldraia so much for all her help and hard work going into this system. Couldn't do it without you. -gman391
Cost Calculation
Before determining a spell’s cost, you have to define the target and the effect, as many of the variables depend on these. How you choose to define the target is as important as what the target is; for example, if the target is Shannon and the effect is “changes target’s hand into a bird’s claw”, then you define variables like Size according to Shannon’s size, but if the target is Shannon’s hand and the effect is “changes target into a bird’s claw”, then you define Size according to the size of Shannon’s hand. The spells do the same thing, but may have differing costs because they were defined differently.
Casting a spell always costs at least one point of mana. This “initiation cost” cannot be mitigated away. To determine whether you have overmitigated, if doing so is necessary, do not consider this point in the spell’s cost. Multiplier costs do not multiply initiation cost; it is added at the very end.
Sorcery
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
School-Dependent Costs
Sorcery
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Initiation Cost: Pay one point of mana; this cannot be mitigated away.
Questions, comments, complaints?
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world."
----Jack Layton
----Jack Layton
-
gman391 - Posts: 3288
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Re: Magic System: Or what happens when gman gets bored.
Calculator is not set up for alchemy reactions over about 1km^3 of volume (1 billion m^3). I think the GM should be vetoing you if you're doing anything of this magnitude anyway.
A couple of things have been shuffled around.
Thamu... tha... item creation now sits below spell creation instead of at the bottom of the sheet.
'Is it in your mastery?' is now at the bottom of the mitigation section.
Thus everything adding, or taking away cost is together.
More subtotals throughout the sheet.
I would like to put in something for sorcery that means you can put the change you want in terms of Db/C/kJ/Joules/whatever depending on what energy type you select and it will calculate the steps for you. It's easier to implement for some energies than others (read: anything linear is easier to write for, so it's temperature and sound that actually require thought on my part.) So yeah, not there yet but may be in updated versions.
This system is for the most part, more straight forward in terms of maths, and there were a few improvements in terms of formulae and general things no one but me will notice, so fingers crossed there won't be too much debugging needed. (There will be something.)
As always spreadsheet is here.
Thank you to Aldraia and gman for their hard work.
A couple of things have been shuffled around.
Thamu... tha... item creation now sits below spell creation instead of at the bottom of the sheet.
'Is it in your mastery?' is now at the bottom of the mitigation section.
Thus everything adding, or taking away cost is together.
More subtotals throughout the sheet.
I would like to put in something for sorcery that means you can put the change you want in terms of Db/C/kJ/Joules/whatever depending on what energy type you select and it will calculate the steps for you. It's easier to implement for some energies than others (read: anything linear is easier to write for, so it's temperature and sound that actually require thought on my part.) So yeah, not there yet but may be in updated versions.
This system is for the most part, more straight forward in terms of maths, and there were a few improvements in terms of formulae and general things no one but me will notice, so fingers crossed there won't be too much debugging needed. (There will be something.)
As always spreadsheet is here.
Thank you to Aldraia and gman for their hard work.
-
serbii - Posts: 4584
- Joined: January 20th, 2011, 5:14 pm
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