Dealing with Dumbledore?

[jgkitarel]

Nothing wrong? Oh, that's fairly inaccurate. Harry has some serious issues that he has not fully come to terms with. One of the things that is sometimes easy for us readers to forget is that this Harry is not his future self, but in a sense, his past self who was given the memories, knowlege and power of his future self. It also means that he is carrying his future self's emotional baggage and psychological trauma.

Just having the memories would be traumatic enough for an eleven year old, but adding in the emotional impact and psychological trauma as if he had actually been there makes things even worse.

Admittedly, he is not a budding sociopath like Dumbledore fears he may be, but it would also not be a hard stretch for him to realize that Harry has some serious issues that need to be addressed.

[gman391]

I misspoke admittedly. I meant problem in the sense he's going to snap and become Voldemort 2.0

[Greatlimmick]

Nothing wrong? Oh, that's fairly inaccurate. Harry has some serious issues that he has not fully come to terms with. One of the things that is sometimes easy for us readers to forget is that this Harry is not his future self, but in a sense, his past self who was given the memories, knowlege and power of his future self. It also means that he is carrying his future self's emotional baggage and psychological trauma.

Just having the memories would be traumatic enough for an eleven year old, but adding in the emotional impact and psychological trauma as if he had actually been there makes things even worse.

Admittedly, he is not a budding sociopath like Dumbledore fears he may be, but it would also not be a hard stretch for him to realize that Harry has some serious issues that need to be addressed.

I'm not sure I see the distinction between an eleven-year-old with the memories of a thirty-year-old and a thirty-year-old in the body of an eleven-year-old. Either way, you have thirty years of memories and an eleven-year-old's physiology and biochemistry.

On the other hand, I get the impression that he's more than the sum of his parts. I don't just mean that he has (or will ultimately have) more total magical power than he had before he went back in time. I mean that, if I understand the merger correctly, he should remember about the first half of his childhood about as well has he remembers the last two thirds or so of the war (since they happened the same relative amount of time ago, from his perspective) and his most distant memories would be the earliest years his first time around at Hogwarts. Basically, as far as he's concerned psychologically, he basically grew up at Hogwarts, then fought the Second Wizarding War while living with the Dursleys without knowing anything about magic (potentially with extreme retroactive déjà vu).

[jgkitarel]

I admit my perception of this is that this Harry is a fusion of the two. The Harry that is eleven and has dreams and hopes for the future and the Harry that is thirty years old who had paid a horrific cost to win a war.

The Harry in this fic is neither of them, but at the same time, is both of them on an individual basis.

[gamebrain89]

That's the way I understood it. When the two merged, both ceased, and a new Harry popped up in its place. With both of their memories, and with Adult Harry's power. He wonders on a couple of occasions about how he thinks of himself as distinct from his future self, instead of thinking "That's me" when he sees those memories.

[Atharyn]

Something to remember is that humans are (more or less) defined by our memories. There's a rather important part of our mind / brain that takes things we see pieces of and compensates. It's how folks can see a fragment of a logo for a tenth of a second but will recognize it as the Pepsi logo, or the Tide (with bleach!) logo. I've read more than one theory that psychologists argue about that says the subconscious mind bounces everything we see off of everything we have seen to interpret it.

If the above is true, the current Harry is Future!Harry + Past!Harry. He isn't one or the other - he is someone new. Given lifespan in terms of memory, Current!Harry is mostly Future!Harry since Future!Harry was older and had more memories.

My two cents for dealing with Dumbledore is that Albus has fallen prey to the worst trap of old age - he believes he is older / wiser / able to perceive more than everyone else. In the HP novels he repeatedly risked the well-being of the average Hogwarts students to try and save a few people "from the dark." Snape's teaching methods or Draco's attempts to kill Albus that kept hitting someone else. If he were to find out about Harry's future knowledge I believe he would do one of two things:
1 - erase the information because it was "too dangerous."
2 - mine Harry's brain for as much information as he can so that he could make the "correct" decisions.

Sadly, if Albus is the one making the decisions, based on past performance, the "bad guys" - former Death Eaters after the first war, for example - will not be punished for their actions. The second war did not just happen in the novels just because Voldemort was able to return. The second war also happened because most of Voldemort's political, economic, and military support structure still existed. Even if Voldemort was sent on to "the next great adventure" the power base would be there for the next Dark Lord to come along.

Consider the real world - specifically the two World Wars. WWI was horrible. Many people died, many more suffered, and in the end the politicians who were supposed to resolve things once the fighting stopped did not. In some cases they made things much worse. Because of their mistakes the stage was set for another war to break out. Adolf Hitler did not rise to power out of thin air. One factor in his sudden leap to power came from the economic / social / political conditions inside Germany at the time. Those conditions were created by many factors as well - including how the politicians and negotiators handled the end of WWI.

Truth potions and magical oaths have been bandied around in both the HP books and fanfiction for years. How hard would it have been for Albus to begin shaming people into proving themselves to have actually been innocent? If I was held under the Imperious I wouldn't want to buy my way out. I would want it on public record, in a very public trial that I subjected myself to every magic or potional imaginable to prove it was not my fault. It would head of any number of problems - vengeful relatives, lawsuits, and so on.

Picture the reaction to this:
"I don't see why Lord Malfoy doesn't just submit to Veritaserum or take a simple oath. Either would completely clear him of any wrongdoing if he was innocent. As long as he refuses to do either the cloud of doubt is going to follow him all the days of his life. His enemies are going to be asking if he was a willing follower for decades simply because he doesn't take an easy, honest approach to put those doubts to rest."

Even a pardon by the minister wouldn't stop his political opponents from using it against him. A pardon, after all, implies that the individual was actually guilty of that crime. The government simply chose not to pursue the matter. And if Lord Malfoy was a terrorist bent on overthrowing the government.. why is he still allowed into the government as an advisor to the Minister?

[Greatlimmick]

Something to remember is that humans are (more or less) defined by our memories. There's a rather important part of our mind / brain that takes things we see pieces of and compensates. It's how folks can see a fragment of a logo for a tenth of a second but will recognize it as the Pepsi logo, or the Tide (with bleach!) logo. I've read more than one theory that psychologists argue about that says the subconscious mind bounces everything we see off of everything we have seen to interpret it.

People are really good at recognizing patterns and guessing, based on experience (or wishful thinking), what we haven't quite seen or don't quite remember. We're so good at it that we seldom even known we're doing it. This may be a big part of Dumbledore's problem: He see's someone on the Dark path, remembers someone he was able to help (or thought he helped), and draws parallels that may not exist.

Truth potions and magical oaths have been bandied around in both the HP books and fanfiction for years. How hard would it have been for Albus to begin shaming people into proving themselves to have actually been innocent? If I was held under the Imperious I wouldn't want to buy my way out. I would want it on public record, in a very public trial that I subjected myself to every magic or potional imaginable to prove it was not my fault. It would head of any number of problems - vengeful relatives, lawsuits, and so on.

Picture the reaction to this:
"I don't see why Lord Malfoy doesn't just submit to Veritaserum or take a simple oath. Either would completely clear him of any wrongdoing if he was innocent. As long as he refuses to do either the cloud of doubt is going to follow him all the days of his life. His enemies are going to be asking if he was a willing follower for decades simply because he doesn't take an easy, honest approach to put those doubts to rest."

Even a pardon by the minister wouldn't stop his political opponents from using it against him. A pardon, after all, implies that the individual was actually guilty of that crime. The government simply chose not to pursue the matter. And if Lord Malfoy was a terrorist bent on overthrowing the government.. why is he still allowed into the government as an advisor to the Minister?

As I understand, this is a symptom of the single biggest problem in Wizard politics. The Malfoys are apparently absurdly wealthy-- wealthy enough to have multiple politicians eating out of their hands. Several of Voldemort's other supporters appear to be in the same boat, or at least the same flotilla. Meanwhile, the Daily Prophet appears to be little more than a Ministry mouthpiece, and any paper that isn't (like the Quibbler) is perceived as little more than a gossip rag. If Millicent Bagnold was anything like Cornelius Fudge, it's entirely possible that Dumbledore did recommend magically extracted testimony but the idea got shouted down in the Wizengamot and suppressed in the media. Furthermore, there are ways to resist Veritaserum (antidotes, Occlumency), and there may be ways around magical oaths as well. (Just off the top of my head, someone who had actually been forced via Imperius to serve the Death Eaters might use Polyjuice to impersonate Lucius Malfoy and swear an oath that carefully uses personal pronouns rather than proper nouns. Someone as wealthy and unscrupulous as the Malfoys may not even have much trouble persuading such a person to cooperate.)

[Atharyn]

Three thoughts worth considering:
1: If those of us not living in the magical world (the readers) can see quick and easy ways around an oath, those raised in the magical world could see them as well. Besides, the simplest statement would serve best.
"I am ______. I was placed under the Imperious by _______. I was never a willing Death Eater." after having sworn to tell the truth for three statements, for example.

2: No matter how much England tried to hide the magical war the rest of the world would have had an idea something was going on. Most countries in the real world run intelligence gathering operations against their enemies, their friends, and themselves. In short order spies from other countries would have found out that...
The Death Eaters were revolutionary terrorists who attacked muggles.
The Death Eaters risked the muggles finding out about the Wizarding World. (Might not be a great risk, but they are still risking other nations' safety.)
The Death Eaters, after the war, are now running various key positions in the British Ministry or are "trusted friends and advisors."

My 10 second analysis would be that the British Minstry lost and is being co-opted by the revolutionary terrorists.

3: The war was fought by the Aurors, the Hit Wizards, and the Order of the Phoenix. It appears, from canon, that most of the people doing the fighting recognized / knew their enemies. (Going to Hogwarts together, after all..) If the Death Eaters are escaping trial and getting into positions in the Ministry and I was one of those three groups I would flat out leave the country.
"The people who were trying to kill me are now helping run the country? And if I work for the government they have a say in how well I get paid and how risky my job is? Right. America, Canada, or Australia - here I come!"

As soon as the Aurors or Hit Wizards start quitting the rest of the world is going to notice. See point two and "the revolutionary terrorists are taking over."

[gman391]

Given the use of memory charms, and high enough occulemancy, Truth becomes a very very malleable thing. You can only tell what you know and getting your friends to modify your memories so what you say is true as you know it...is probably most DE's would do in that case. They have the pockets for it.

On the other hand. The Wizarding world in general seems to be about a century out of date. So to project 21st century politics on it might be wrong. Or even twentieth century politics. However analogies can be made. For all we know England is like Soviet Russia after the Civil War and things were just starting to defrost between England and the rest of the world before Voldemort did his reunion tour. Regardless the fact remains that invading another country to administer justice is a very iffy thing to do even if you can muster up the will politically to do it.
As for people leaving because of the new boss being what they're fighting against...probably some of them did leave. However I also expect a lot of 'My Country Right or Wrong' to be in play along with the hope that they can moderate things if they stay. This is leaving aside any personal relationships they might have with DE's
The problem with Civil Wars is that afterwards you have to work together with your brother who tried to kill you.
I'd expect it to be vastly more messy and dirty internally then what we see, however Harry Potter isn't interested in that so we never find out.

[Greatlimmick]

Is it canon or fanon that memory charms are both difficult and dangerous to reverse? If it's canon, then I guess they'd be a viable workaround if you don't mind actually believing what you plan to say in court.

Regardless the fact remains that invading another country to administer justice is a very iffy thing to do even if you can muster up the will politically to do it.

Which is why embargoes and economic sanctions seem to be the preferred method. It might also explain why the aurors and hit wizards didn't emigrate: Other countries might not want British wizards just this moment. Well, except for countries with a strong tradition in the Dark Arts, like wherever Durmstrang is, but for anyone who fought Voldemort that may not be much better. (Much of the Order of the Phoenix would probably stay as long as Dumbledore did though. They seem pretty confident in him and pretty loyal.)

[jgkitarel]

It's not so much as whether they can be reversed, so much as it is that if the person believes the memory, or even what they are saying, to be true, then no amount of methods of extracting the truth will be considered entirely reliable.

It's never explicitly stated whether they are easy or difficult to reverse, though considering how Lockhart managed to scramble his own brains, I lean more towards difficult.

[Atharyn]

I can also imagine for formal trial (or serious oaths) they would use a multiple, redundant system.

Step 1: Wait for an hour without eating or drinking anything to rule out Polyjuice.
Step 2: Take Veritaserum.
Step 3: Have someone ask the agreed upon questions.
Step 4: Wait for the Veritaserum to wear off.
Step 5: Take an oath that you've told the truth.

(Less than a minute, and I'm sure it could be improved. I just wanted to respond on a very short break at work..)

[gman391]

Again Memory charms for the win, also you're assuming that those families that would need this level of work against wouldn't somehow game the system so they don't.

[Atharyn]

It seems we've gotten to the point where we are talking past each other, Gman. You keep saying "memory charms" as if that trumps everything else.

We do not know that it does. In fact, judging by Dumbledore's familiarity with the tampering done by Slughorn it is possible for another to figure out that the subject has been memory charmed.

My point is that if these things were as simple as you are suggesting, Malfoy and the other Death Eaters would have been too stupid to live if they hadn't memory charmed themselves up and then gone in front of the Wizengamot for a trial voluntarily.

The fact that they didn't is one of two things:
1: JKR wasn't thinking it through to the degree we are debating
or
2: They believed the magical prosecution could or would destroy their alibis, leading to either death, the Kiss, or Azkaban and chose not to risk it.

Getting back to the original goal of my first post, Dumbledore utterly failed in his job as Chief Warlock to ensure that folks got trials instead of buying their freedom. Before folks point out he is only one person, please consider that they have political enemies beyond Dumbledore. Madam Longbottom, for example, seemed to have a special hatred for the ones who destroyed her son and her daughter-in-law. How hard would it have been for Dumbledore to point this out and organize the victims' families to put together a coalition to block them buying their freedom. The Daily Prophet might be a Ministry mouthpiece, but at the time the Ministry had just been fighting the Death Eaters. We know, from Dumbledore's memories in canon, that right after the war ended people were vehemently anti-Death Eater. In that atmosphere how hard would it be to stir up public sentiment to demand a trial for accused Death Eaters?

For crying out loud, you could even throw them a bone by saying "we just want to get a simple answer - were you willing or not? If you were unwilling we'll let the public know. If not, we will continue the investigation." Anyone who doesn't take you up on that is admitting, to anyone with a gram of political acumen, that they might have committed some crimes somewhere..

Also consider the family lines we know lost folks to the Death Eaters:
The Bones family
The Prewett family
The Longbottom family
The Potter family was almost wiped out
The McKinnon family

Some of those families had pull in the Ministry. In addition, Dumbledore served with the ICW. I don't know how highly placed he was after the first war, but by the second he was helping run things directly. He could have, in addition to seeking to create a public outcry at home, raised the issue internationally. It would have damaged England's reputation if they were just letting people go because they bought their freedom. And, as earlier mentioned, embargoes would have been an option that would avoid actual military intervention.

All indications, in canon and otherwise, show that Dumbledore did none of these things. He protected Severus Snape and that's about it. He didn't even push for a trial for Sirius Black, one of the members of his Order. I admit everyone thought he was a traitor. It does, however, beg the question of why there was no trial for Sirius.

If he was innocent the real traitor could have escaped.

If he was guilty he could have been fed to a Dementor for his crimes.

Justice or revenge, take your pick. You can get both for the effort of making sure the law is followed, which is part of your job if you are Dumbledore.

[gman391]

You're right Memory Charms doesn't trump everything and I'm sorry I keep trying to use it like it does.
Although we don't know when Dumbledore became Chief Warlock so arguably he wasn't in place to make sure that happened and that's why he sought the post in the first place. That's an unsatisfying answer. Ultimately Wattsonian Answers don't really fit here, I don't want to bash JKR I don't agree with all her decisions but ultimately she wrote a bunch of characters we love and created an engaging world we love and she deserves respect for that. However in this case I think the Doylist answer is the correct one, JKR just didn't think it through.

[Wittgen]

Why wasn't there a trial for Sirius? As you pointed out, anti-Death Eater sentiment was high. The scenes of a trial of a death eater were pretty witch hunty. The presumed murderer of the wizarding worlds newest mythic baby savior would have certainly gotten the kiss, yeah? Dumbledore could have been doing what he could to spare Black the kiss. Grindlewald is proof that he is reluctant to kill important people, no matter how bad they go.

Why didn't suspected death eaters get put away? Politics. The likes of the Malfoys had enough money and political clout that they got away scott free. It sucks, but elites being able to get away with things is very believable.

It's pretty fair to point out that there are powerful tools for estabilshing facts thanks to magic, and it's damn near criminal that magical Britain doesn't use these tools. Criminal, but not unreasonable. After all, the procedures for trials were created by wizards, and there are lots of reaons they would make a shitty system. An elaborate, quality system like you suggest could be too embarassing (socially/culturally taboo), too dangerous (veritaserum is a poison in the wrong dosage, not to mention if brewed incorrectly, and we don't know much about mind magic in general), or too expensive (veritaserum is rare, so are legilimens) to pull off.

Add to that the fact that for every magic trick to get the truth, it is possible there is one more to hide it, and the whole endeavor becomes unfeasible. A good justice system would be nice, but there is no real reason to expect the wizarding one to be markedly better than the muggle one. (And the muggle one is bad.)

We don't know exactly what Dumbledore's powers and responsibliites are in terms of his positions. We do know he wears many hats, faces widespread political opposition, has limited information, and deeply fears his own impulse to wield power. Eh. I think Dumbledore's master plan was terrible, but I think his failures as a headmaster are more egregious than his failures as a politician.

[jgkitarel]

It should also be kept in mind that JKR deliberately made the Ministry of Magic hopelessly corrupt and/or incompetent in many respects. Considering that she was basing a lot of Wizarding government on the 19th Century English government, which was notorious for its internal corruption and would be considered hopelessly incompetent by modern standards, this is not hard to believe. Also, JKR specifically said that veritaserum can be resisted, if not ignored outright, by a skilled occlumens. Due to that, the Wizengamot doesn't use it in trials.

[Atarlost]

Even if veratiserum can produce false negatives the fact that it can determine guilt with no false positives should make it invaluable.

Someone confesses under veratiserum you can stop the trial. They're guilty. Unless resistance is extremely common that will happen in a substantial fraction of trials.

[jgkitarel]

Thread necromancy here due to an archive binge.

The veritaserum argument is assuming that those who are using veritaserum will be entirely ethical about it and restrict their questions only to what is pertinent to the case at hand. Most wizards who are innocent would not trust their questioners to be honest, even with an oath, as the only kinds of oaths that would be trusted are not ones which would be given lightly, and a trial would be considered too routine a matter for it. These same oaths also have nasty consequences for those who violate them even accidentally and conflicting oaths can cause even more problems.

Given what we've seen of the Ministry in canon, not to mention NoFP, you honestly expect something like this to work without a lot of room for abuse?

[Chuckg]

Also, JKR specifically said that veritaserum can be resisted, if not ignored outright, by a skilled occlumens.

JKR also gave a splendid demonstration in canon of how to get around that problem with Barty Crouch Jr. Stun him, then administer the veritaserum, then don't wake him up until its already in his bloodstream and active, and even then, keep him too disoriented to concentrate.

There's a reason most people don't pay attention to that interview; she's contradicting herself. Well, not openly contradicting, but failing to note that the alleged problem she lays out is not only already solvable but already solved in her own actual book canon.

As far as the potential for the abuse of questioning, that -- while entirely true -- is still up there with 'since it is possible that cops might lie to get a search warrant, or might search in places that the warrant dosen't cover, therefore the solution is to abolish all search warrants'. While it would work to prevent abuse it would also serve to make effective criminal investigation impossible. And in this case, while criminal investigation can go on without veritaserum, so can an unacceptably -- very unacceptably -- high wrongful conviction rate, as well as an unacceptably high 'Imperius defense!' rate.

While you should never allow a government unlimited authority (and nobody is suggesting doing so here), at some point you just have to trust the government to do their jobs. If you can't, then the solution is not to abolish their job, but to get a new government.

[rbear1231]

Dumbles is very dangerous, as i have e read this story 6 times now, the crappy writter in my mind has been working and i have written (in my mind nothing on paper or typed up) how Dumbles could be informed and bought into the game which i beleave it is time now after ch 39.

if mathew was having trouble (writers bloke) i would type up and send to him what i think could work, but only him and only if he asked.

but i think it is time for the old codger to get in the game.

mr shockly (sorry if i get your name wrong) i am waiting till the next chapter.