Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » April 24th, 2008, 10:35 pm

So in essence you're saying that the entire wizarding world boils down to the old saying that any sufficiently advanced science will appear to be magic?
"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
— Captain America

Naruto RP Character - Takuma Itsuki, Special Jounin
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby viridian » April 25th, 2008, 1:04 am

Since Magic has an effect on electronics, it is definitely using EM Fields.
Is it using EM fields, or are they just a side effect? Jumping from 'messing up electronics' to 'magic is caused by EM field manipulations' is a rather large jump. Kinda like saying 'nuclear bombs produce heat therefore sufficient heat will split atoms'.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby viridian » April 25th, 2008, 10:37 am

Actually, heat and pressure. And IIRC, it's the compression that's more important (so too many escaping neutrons don't miss smacking into another atom and splitting it). That's why meltdowns don't explode.

But fine then: "Nuclear bombs make loud noises, therefore loud noises split atoms."

The point is that correlation doesn't imply causality.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Ironwolf » April 25th, 2008, 5:31 pm

Actually the noise you hear is a function of the atmosphere, it is actually the air displaced by the explosion, not the sound of the explosion itself...but that is merely splitting hairs.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby bibliophile20 » April 25th, 2008, 8:44 pm

Then what is your pet theory that doesn't violate Occam's Razor?
How 'bout... IT'S MAGIC!

Not to be too pointed here, but mind you, trying to figure out how any sort of fantasy magic would integrate with science is pointless, in the same way that trying to reconcile a literal reading of the Bible with modern science is pointless, and for the same reason.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby mr sinister » April 25th, 2008, 9:35 pm

Couldn't even hazard a guess on this. Personally, I would say that its probably someone posing as a student, the finger pointing is a red herring, the real spy is someone who's using polyjuice to replace a student.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby unknown59 » April 25th, 2008, 10:08 pm

Once again Suspension of Belief. Shouting its fantasy and we shouldn't apply science is a dishonest debating tactic. Once again we observe the effects and work on basic assumptions using basic scientific principles.
True, but at this point the mechanics of how magic work simply are not fleshed out enough to do the kind of in-depth analysis you are reaching for. We have a paucity of evidence, and no evidence magic operates under any laws of EM fields besides "Magic messes with technology". Hell, even that is contradicted in canon, or else they might notice a giant blackout area where the ministry is in the middle of freakin London.
:lol:
Job and God were discussing science you know. Get the book in the original Hebrew and you would be amazed at how Job knew many scientific principles we take for granted today.

The Bible is also full of spec ops, counter intelligence, espionage, and grand military strategy if you can read between the lines and in the original Hebrew.
Plus, Biblophile was correct. Literal readings of the Bible also include people surviving in a desert without nourishment, transmutation of water into wine, and other assorted impossible things; such as the world being created a couple thousand years ago. You cannot reconcile those with modern science, futile effort. You must wait until science can explain them, or choose to read the Bible non-literally.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby bibliophile20 » April 25th, 2008, 11:07 pm

Once again Suspension of Belief. Shouting its fantasy and we shouldn't apply science is a dishonest debating tactic. Once again we observe the effects and work on basic assumptions using basic scientific principles.

:lol:
Job and God were discussing science you know. Get the book in the original Hebrew and you would be amazed at how Job knew many scientific principles we take for granted today.

The Bible is also full of spec ops, counter intelligence, espionage, and grand military strategy if you can read between the lines and in the original Hebrew.
Actually I can read it in the original Hebrew, thank you very much--over a decade of Orthodox Jewish religious school, with religious classes for four to six hours a day, six days a week will do that, but I haven't practiced my Ivrit in years, ever since I pretty much gave up and walked away due to the rampant hypocrisy. And I do have the book, in the original Hebrew, with Rashi and a very good translation for when I don't want to muddle through due my lack of practice (thank you Artscroll).

Now that my credentials are somewhat established, let me say this:

I said "Literal reading of the Tanach." No "interpretations", no "reading between the lines", none of that--I said, expanding out, that trying to reconcile and explain the 'miracles' done by magicians in any fantasy setting with the laws and rules of science are as pointless as trying to reconcile a literal reading of the iEser Ha-Makot with the laws of physics, because, as hard as we might try, we can't turn water into blood, we can't turn sand into lice, we can't make hailstones burn or split the sea and so forth.

Fact of the matter is, quite simply: Once Magic Or Miracles Are Involved, The Rulebook As We Know It Gets Thrown Out The Window.

Setting the Tanach aside for the moment to get to the real focus of the argument, fantasy universes, whether ones that are familiar like Harry Potter, or as exotic as the Discworld, operate according to a different rulebook. They have a different set of universal constants that, in the Potterverse, for example allow the desires of a child, the chemical impulses in their brain, to directly affect reality via "Magic". This is impossible according to our rulebook... but they're using a different one. "Basic Scientific Principles" don't apply; sure, you can form a hypothesis, but how the heck would you test it? And how would you scientifically analyze something as subjective as Potterverse magic, which can conjure constructs of wood out of nothing (Dumbledore's "drawing up" Trelawney's chair in PoA), create beverages from nothing, so long as there was some already present (the Refilling Charm in HBP), but can't create other complex organic structures, a.k.a. food?

I suppose that you might be trying to figure out their "rulebook", but, honestly, as I've pointed out on with this group before, such an endeavor can only end badly--the creators never bothered to go into that sort of detail, so trying to figure out what they never bothered can only end with headaches.

The real danger, however, is when one person's theory comes under attack. We had a mild example of it earlier, when people started taking the theory on Magic=EM fields apart. Since there's no way to be sure, then there's no way to end the argument conclusively, which can end with both sides agreeing to disagree, or (more commonly) a massive flame war that often ends with people getting banned. I like to try to avoid those situations, so, personally, when I read a work of fantasy, I look at the rules of magic as presented in the book, analyze them, extrapolate them, think of fun uses for them(ritual samples of explosives from the enemy's warehouse FTW!)--and don't even try to relate them to the physical laws as I know them.

That's my perspective, and my comment about "IT'S MAGIC!" was to try and remind everyone to step back, relax, and remember the MST3K Motto: "It's just a show/book/movie/etc, I should really just relax." I personally don't want a repeat of the fellow last year who called the Authorlord an idiot in ALLCAPS after he refused to accept the holes in his personal views of the Potterverse physical laws.

Oh, and as for the Book Of Job and the Bible having scientific principles and military strategy "in between the lines"? Now that you've made the statement, back it up. Because, aside from the scouts being sent into Canaan, I'm drawing a blank (of course, mind you, I was taught by those that believe the Earth is 5768 years old and that studying most sciences is dangerous at best, heretical at worst, so maybe their curriculum skipped over a few things. And, no, I'm not bitter. Much.)

(and if I'm a little incoherent, I apologize, it's because I'm exhausted and not a little cranky from trying not to cough up my lungs for the last few days)

EDIT: And I'm apparently really slow tonight. Thank you, Zore.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby viridian » April 26th, 2008, 2:58 am


Then what is your pet theory that doesn't violate Occam's Razor?
"It's Magic!" is a bit too easy, so I won't do that. How about sub-quantum forces science hasn't discovered yet? It worked for Aberrant and Trinity.

The problem I had with your theory is the building assumptions that result in using EMP and electronic warfare systems to block magic. That's when Occam's Razor cuts the other way for me.

It's not a bad idea to explore for a one-shot, but I wouldn't insist it is the one true way for canon to work.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby viridian » April 26th, 2008, 3:32 pm

Why are you guys starting a religious debate in a Goddamn Fanfiction discussion forum?

(And yes, that was a pun.) :mrgreen:

I will start a "cage match" forum for this type of thing if you guys really want one. (And make someone else monitor it!) But please, this is ridiculously off-topic here.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Alex Mcpherson » April 26th, 2008, 5:08 pm

Why are you guys starting a religious debate in a Goddamn Fanfiction discussion forum?

(And yes, that was a pun.) :mrgreen:

I will start a "cage match" forum for this type of thing if you guys really want one. (And make someone else monitor it!) But please, this is ridiculously off-topic here.
...

Do i have to put more space here so people see this ?...

...

anyway my post from earlier which i'm reposting so it gets people back ontopic.
I think the AIP is...
*drum roll*

*ridiculously long drum roll*
Mrs Norris!
*cymbal*
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby viridian » April 26th, 2008, 5:51 pm

Why are you guys starting a religious debate in a Goddamn Fanfiction discussion forum?

(And yes, that was a pun.) :mrgreen:

I will start a "cage match" forum for this type of thing if you guys really want one. (And make someone else monitor it!) But please, this is ridiculously off-topic here.
Well it sort of crept in after I mentioned SOB and Rules for an Evil Overlord.
... not to mention lecturing someone raised as an Orthodox Jew about how they should try reading the original Hebrew. Ouch. :shock:

That's one reason why dragging religion into otherwise civil discussion is like mentioning Xander's employment at 'The Fabulous Ladies Nightclub' - Nothing Good Can Come Of It.
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Re: Whose the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Trademarc » April 27th, 2008, 1:15 pm

Just out of curiosity, did anyone pick up on why Cho Chang was attacked?
I though it was to delay the Huffelpuff/Ravenclaw quidditch match so that Harry and Draco could be in the castle at the same time (since they both play for their house teams) while every one else was at the game.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Alex Mcpherson » April 27th, 2008, 2:42 pm

Cho was attacked because the Agent In Place needed to know if he could hit a moving target in mid air at range to eventually do what he did when he cast that spell at Harry.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Trademarc » April 27th, 2008, 3:13 pm

Actualy had a rather fun discussion with a friend about just who the agnet was. one of the most intreesting theorys we had was that it could be Cedric Diggory. No we don't really beleve that it is but the implications for the story if it were too much fun to consider to just drop right away.

My personal fave for who it could be would be Penelope Clearwater but she was negated by pronoun usage.

The AIP seems to me to be from the current time line (IMO mulitpule time travelers seems to convolute the story too much unless they managed to piggy back with Harry), Male (based on pronoun usage), probably a few years older definatly not younger, I think it is a student but could be staff at hogwarts, Is a Slytherin or Ravenclaw (seems to point more to Slytherin but that could be a bit of a mislead).
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Alex Mcpherson » April 27th, 2008, 3:30 pm

the fact that slytherins wands didn't show any thing, the hufflepuffs back in 2nd year when cho was shot down, didn't show anything and i seriously doubt a gryffindor would try to do Harry in - not impossible but a big doubt - I would think a Ravenclaw.

remember, most if nto all ravenclaws shown to date in NoFP seem to be not that intelligent.

It's like they say about Clever and Smart people.
The Clever person just knows a lot
the Smart person can put what he/she knows into practise.

(Some people define the two the other way around, and some define the two words as having the exact same meaning.)

The house of Ravenclaw is supposed to be a hosue of Smart people.
it's instead a house of just Clever people, to use that above difference in definition.

For example.

I am reasonably Smart, but not that clever. I don't learn as well from books as I do from practise.

for Ravenclaws, both canon and NoFP seem to have agreed that while they learn well from books, the ravenclaws aren't all that good at applying their supposed intelligence to real life.
So the paragraphs about the AIP would fit both Slytherin and Ravenclaw descriptions.
It doesnt fit the other two since GRyffs is about being brave, (And most Gryffindors are to a ridiculously idiotic extent according to Snape,) and Hufflepuff is a house of loyalty - although they haven't really been that good with it, being easy to sway like most ravenclaws.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Trademarc » April 27th, 2008, 8:07 pm

Kinda curious besides Cho who have we seen in NoFP that is in Ravenclaw. I do personaly think that Ravenclaw is the most probable house for the AIP.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Alex Mcpherson » April 27th, 2008, 9:18 pm

we have:
Marietta Edgecombe (likely? nope. it was a male)
Roger Davies
Eddie Carmichael
Terry Boot
Michael Corner
Anthony Goldstein

Non of these make sense.

considering that list of males - if the AIP is not an OC, then I switch back to Slytherin with the point that the person in question could have merely duplicated a class' spell and then a few other spells to make it appear that he wasn't involved - like Harry did that christmas after Sirius escaped... If you ask me I think it's Blaise Zabini.
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Re: Whose the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Ed_Becerra » May 4th, 2008, 10:37 pm

Is it possible that the incident with Cho was simply a red herring in itself?
Obviously... Tim Curry testified to that.

"Communism was just a red herring."

-- Tim Curry, "Clue."

*rimshot*

:lol:

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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Ed_Becerra » May 4th, 2008, 10:44 pm

Personally, he should have chosen a keystone in the Pyramids, put one in a satelite and launch it into space. Send another to the moon. The rest keep in secret Swiss Bank Accounts.
And "trust" the dirty muggles? And for the space suggestions, placing pieces of your soul aboard what amounts to a multi-ton shaped explosive charge doesn't seem to be too intelligent to me if one's intention is immortality.
What, Gringotts doesn't have a branch in Switzerland? :D

Seriously... it was good enough (at least for a time) for the Philosopher's Stone.

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The Agent In Place

Unread postby Nahmen » May 11th, 2008, 7:05 pm

This question has certainly plagued me as well. There really aren't a lot of clues to who it could be in the fic, and those have already been discussed. However, I do have a theory. It actually uses canon a bit more than the fic, as well as a few allusions.

Viridian uses the Harry Potter Lexicon for research in his work (he posted that somewhere around here) and I use that site myself, so I did some digging. My mind snagged on the rescheduling of the quidditch matches and I had a thought. There is another very good reason to reschedule the previous match; if the Agent was a member of the '92-'93 Slytherin Quidditch team.

Using the HPL page http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay- ... #3_Results, I found the following information:
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets [CS = Y12/13]

S: s: Malfoy; c: +Flint, Pucey; k: Bletchley
Following up on this list, I found the following entry of particular interest:
Bletchley, Miles SlytherinQuidditch

Slytherin, c. 1989 - 1996, Quidditch team Keeper.
Hit Alicia Spinnet from behind with a jinx in the library prior to the autumn 1995 Gryffindor-Slytherin match, but Snape refused to believe the fourteen eyewitnesses (OP19).

Since Bletchley was at least a second year when Harry started at Hogwarts, and since he was still at Hogwarts in the 1995 - 1996 school year, he must be either one or more likely two years older than Harry.
I submit the theory that the agent in place is a NoFP Slytherin Quidditch player. Bletchley is my top pick for his canon history of creative jinxing, but Pucey works well to. Warrington (who in canon was a reader of 'Quidditch through the ages [in that book; he checked it out]) and Montague are also very good candidates, though there's no empirical proof they were in fact on the 92-93 team.

And remember, in the post-attack chapter in Nightmares, Dumbledore only mind-scanned Flint and Pansy.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby unknown308 » May 13th, 2008, 2:15 pm

Here's a good question. Did the agent-in-place actually kill Melissa (it is implied, but not clearly stated, he could have just used another pawn to do it), and if so, is it reasonable to believe that not only did he hex Cho off her broom for target practice, but as a dress rehearsal as to the kind of panic caused by said event?

Personally? I'll go with a love-crazed future Michael Corner. Just for the soap opera angle. ;)
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Kal » May 13th, 2008, 2:37 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the 1st time we meet up with the agent in place (AIP) is in the kids’ second year? The AIP could be our favorite little rat Pettigrew. Who’s to say that he didn't "escape" the ministry with the help of an influential patron (cough-Malfoy-cough) and is now popping in and out of Hogworts using his form? Is this something the goblins are warding against, and would they know to cover every underground passage? Could they?

Also, is Malfoy the only DE on the Board of Govs? What other non-student/teacher could move through the halls with impunity?

And considering the number of students with some family ties to each other, think of how many possible suspects it could be. We certainly don’t have an accounting of all the students even in Harry’s year, let alone upperclassman.

Heck, it could even be a Barty Crouch Jr polyjuiced again! He he – if it is, I vote for him to be masquerading as Trewlany. Why? Why not! :rollin:
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby unknown59 » May 13th, 2008, 6:17 pm

I don't believe the Patron is Lucuis Malfoy because the Agent was using mind control potions on his son, I doubt he would willingly order his agent to use his child as a cat's paw. Twisted as the Malfoy family is their is some genuine care beneath their bitter exteriors.
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Re: Who's the 'agent in place'? *spoilers for latest chapters*

Unread postby Trademarc » May 13th, 2008, 6:46 pm

Yea but what if Lucius didn't know what the agents plan was. Also the only reason that the plan didn't work perfectly was because of Harry's future knowledge. Take that away and the plan goes off with out a hitch and, Little Draco gets a shinny new invisability cloak. I don't think that Lucius would have been upset by that and, he wouldn't have nor does he now know about any potions.
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