"On the other hand, the Ministry might need that prison…"

[MantisFA]

When I was originally reading this story, "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality" did not yet exist; reading that fic forced me to really think (more than I have any reason to believe JKR ever did, in fact) about the implications of dementors and Azkaban in light of the ethics of torture and punishment as broadly understood by civilized people (excluding sadistic war criminals like Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld) in the real world. I have to agree with rationalist!Harry's conclusion that any government that subjects prisoners, regardless of their crimes, to the continuous presence of dementors for months or years, far less any government that would even consider subjecting anyone to the dementor's kiss, has no conceivable claim to be on the side of Light against the Dark. I'm curious as to whether you've been reading HPMOR, and if so, whether that will eventually affect your Harry's views on dementors and the ethical acceptability of Azkaban's existence.

[runsamok]

Hello,

Let me first say, that the AuthorLord has read many many many fanfics of many genres and also many books. I'll put it this way.. we have 13 bookshelves full of books in our house! So although he may have read that fanfic (among others) in general the AuthorLord tries to decide what the character's worldviews are (ahead of time) and then see how the world he's built for them (within the HP universe) affects their opinions. I will let Viridian weigh in on his creative process also.

[elizabethl]

If you think about the unique circumstances in which this Harry is in, it is possible to see why he might not be particularly sympathetic to the plight of the prisoners in Azkaban. It's likely that in the last war Voldie broke out the prisoners in Azkaban who returned to his side, and quite possibly turned the Dementors as well. In that case, given that this Harry is severely traumatized, filled with rage and with far fewer qualms and moral compunctions, I think it's more probable that he sees Azkaban and everyone in it as a threat as opposed to worrying about the rights of whoever is in there. He's more likely to want to slit the throats of everyone there, destroy the Dementors and destroy this resource for the Dark Lord. So while Rationalist! Harry is absolutely right about the ethics of punishment and torture and the giant red flag that Azkaban's existence is, this Harry is more likely to see that no one, not him or Dumbledore or the Ministry, is on the side of angels. He doesn't see HIMSELF as completely part of the light. But he knows what and who he's fighting. His quest is to kill Voldemort and ensure that as much of the Wizarding World survives it as is possible, and he's already demonstrated that he's willing to stain his soul to get the job done. Harry will debate right and wrong when he's done.

On another note, what would you have them do with the prisoners? Leaving aside that the entire repugnant wizarding legal system requires a total reboot, where would you put those found guilty? Harry already knows that Voldemort is going to rise and rise more powerful than ever; there is no prison that can withstand him, and that his imprisoned followers will return to his side along with (I suspect) many others who had been imprisoned in Azkaban. Is the only thing to do a swift and painless execution?

[MantisFA]

Nurmengard apparently held Grindelwald for over forty years without using Dementors as guards, so the necessity of Dementors in a prison intended to hold wizards and ensure they don't escape is questionable at best. In the face of a powerful force operating outside the prison and determined to free its imprisoned allies, however, execution of those allies may indeed be the only sure way to prevent that force from overwhelming the prison's guards and increasing its strength thereby. Immediate execution seems far more human than a life sentence under the soul-crushing influence of the Dementors in any case.

It was implied, but never stated in canon, that one reason the Dementors were used to guard Azkaban was that they were impossible to destroy, so the Ministry needed to make some kind of deal with them to keep them from making trouble; Voldemort, of course, was able to offer them a more attractive deal, with far more opportunities to eat people's souls outright (i.e. Kiss them) instead of just nibbling on them, so they defected to his side and released the Lestranges, Dolohov, and the rest of the surviving Death Eaters imprisoned after the first war. In this story, it's been established (contra canon) that Dementors can be destroyed by forcing them against the latest model anti-Dementor wards with something as simple and ubiquitous as a Summoning Charm. The obvious conclusion is that if at all possible, the Dementors in Azkaban should be exterminated by erecting such wards around the prison and summoning the Dementors into them, before those Dementors become a powerful addition to Voldemort's faction.

I'm interested to see what will happen in NoFP when Harry meets Mad-Eye Moody. Moody is a veteran of the first war, nearly as deadly a combatant as Dumbledore, and far more ruthlessly pragmatic than Dumbledore ever was; in the earlier timeline, he led the defense of Azkaban before it finally fell to Voldemort, and made certain that no imprisoned Death Eaters survived to rejoin their master when that happened. If he could be trusted with Harry's secret, he might have sufficient connections from his Auror days to ensure that Bellatrix et. al. never leave Azkaban alive in the new timeline.

[elizabethl]

So against the threat of Voldemort and the Dementors, the ethical thing to do is to execute both the prisoners and the Dementors? Then really, there's no point mentioning Rationalist! Harry and NoFP! Harry in the same breath, because in a way Rationalist! Harry has the luxury and naivety of his moral position. I'm not saying that his analysis isn't sound, but he feels free to bash Dumbledore and everyone else, and take the morally superior high ground without realizing that if he destroys the Dementors then his too is the burden/responsibility of executing many, if not most, of the prisoners. (Of course, this is only assuming that he will not

Spoiler: show

destroy Voldie as he does in MoR [with quite ridiculous ease]

, and there is a similar situation to NoFP, where a drawn-out war is a possibility.)

[MantisFA]

No spoilers for HPMOR, please, I haven't read the last seventeen chapters yet -- I'm rereading from the start before reading the ending.

Spoiler: show

Not that "Harry destroys Voldemort with ridiculous ease" is much of a spoiler -- that was almost a foregone conclusion -- but please no details beyond that.

[elizabethl]

Eek! Forgive me. I'll go back and edit to hide spoilers.

[Psalm Of Fire]

Mantis, spoiler your post T.T