Jyuuken and Genjutsu

[Ironwolf]

Here's a thought, since we all know how the Jyuuken works, since our favorite Naruto princess uses it, and genjutsu is the application of your chakra onto your opponents system to create an illusion, or something like that; couldn't Hinata learn to cast some fairly creative illusions on her opponents just by tapping them? I mean, between her, Kurenai, and Naruto, I am quite sure they could come up with something that would be most suitable in conjunction with her fighting style.

[Tempest Kitsune]

*ponders* It has possibilities, but the problem is that Jyuuken is simply the insertion of raw chakra into the system to damage an opponent, while a genjutsu is a carefully constructed illusion that needs to be cast over the opponent without them realizing it. You'd think they'd notice something is wrong if suddenly Hinata started turning into a monster after she'd struck them, plus the pain and foreign chakra from the hit would probably disrupt the genjutsu's hold over the target.

[Togusa]

I think there's real potential for her in the genjutsu field.

Remember when Kurenai asked each member to show his/her favourite technique, Hinata did a henge, wich is basically a genjutsu, isn't it? And it was, according to the *other* canon, "picture perfect". It's mentioned too that she's got very good chakra control from Jyuuken training.

Still, for effectivity's sake, what's the need of having to 'tap' your opponent if you can execute the genjutsu safely away from the up-close? If the effects are going to be the same, I think it's best being far away...

Another thing altogether would be that, while fighting people, she could power-up her attacks with some sort of genjutsu effect, maybe sight alteration so that her enemy would get confused while she safely and precisely tore up him phisically with Jyuuken. Besides, this has the surprise advantage: you wouldn't expect to worry about genjutsu while your enemy is coming at you the taijutsu way (while it's more suspicious if your enemy keeps away)

[MEKristian]

The real benefit of a close-range Illusion would be the shear shock I'd give; Imagine fighting an opponent hand to hand, when suddenly, the sky turns purple, you can't movie and it feels like your mind is going to explode... now combine it with a lack of time to undo the effects before you're hit with a Jyuken to the heart.

[Ironwolf]

Not if your cleaver about it, you don't need really big changes like that, just subtle suguestions about how things "really" are, futhermore, with the right modifications to the style, you could slip hand seals into the strikes...it would be easier if she meet Haku and he taught her One-Handed seals, and after the shaping the chakra all you have to do is apply it. As for the pain, I'm more than certain you can numb the pain with either a strike to a pain receptor or as part of the function of said genjutsu. Here's a good example, she's fighting Neji again, and she adds her genjutsu trick to her strikes, she creates an illusion where he believes that he is so much stronger than he really is, that he is faster or she is slower than what is real, that her blows are nearly as hard because they don't hurt as much, to the point where he cannot even feel his body starting to shut down...at least not until she wants him to feel it^^

[Togusa]

Oooh bad example there.

For Neji fighting would have Byakugan switched on, and he could see through the genjutsu.

Remember when Kurenai taught teams 8 and Gai (minus Neji) about genjutsu that she mentioned there being "few highly advanced genjutsu" techniques that could fool the Byakuugan.

But I get the point.

[Ironwolf]

No, that is a good example, remember in the fight between Naruto and Neji?
[quote="Team 8 Chaper 16]"What good are those eyes if you don't even use them?[/quote]
Naruto TRICKED Neji with a genjutsu because he saw what he expected to see what he was seeing, I mean Naruto pranked Kurenai much the same way earlier on, and she is the genjutsu mistress. So, unless you account for the possiblity that what you are seeing is not real, then you have a chance to believe it. And things only get worse here, the longer the fight lasts, the more the illusion is reinforced, detail added to.

[MEKristian]

I'd thought of another benefit of tap-range Genjutsu, which I can explain with a handy flashlight analogy;

Let's say you're standing at one end of a room, and somebody else is at the other end. You have a flashlight with you and decide that you want to flash it in their eyes. Now, from the range you're at, to temporarily blind them would take a fair bit of energy; the light looses energy as it travels, so without enough energy, you won't do jack.

Now then, compare this with using the same flashlight, but instead of just turning the light on, you run up to the person and flash it into the other guy's eyes.

Sure, there are flaws to the analogy (such as being able to SEE a flashlight compared to chakra and what-not), but it shows a possible difference between range and close-combat.

[telosphilos]

Oooh bad example there.

For Neji fighting would have Byakugan switched on, and he could see through the genjutsu.

Remember when Kurenai taught teams 8 and Gai (minus Neji) about genjutsu that she mentioned there being "few highly advanced genjutsu" techniques that could fool the Byakuugan.

But I get the point.

Two points: Ironwolf had one right about the eye effects being useless if the mind behind the eyes isn't properly applied and the second being that not all shinobi have special eye techniques.

So what if it doesn't work against a specialized subset of shinobi with specialized visual techniques? They are a subset, not the majority. If you run into one, you change tactics and use a different tool. Sometimes you need a hammer, sometimes you need a screwdriver, but if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. This is fundamentally the problem with specialized bloodlines. They limit themselves. It's a psychological blindspot that could easily become crippling.

Now lets' steal a thought from The Way of the Appartment Manager, does all genjutsu have to have a visual effect? Instead of fooling the visual senses, fool the ears! Make the opponent think he's being targeted by kunai and shuriken from behind and force him to dodge into a position that is more favorable. Fool the sense of touch so that he thinks he drew his sword when he is actually weaponless. Fool his sense of self to make him think he's been poisoned because he tastes iron on his tongue and he's feeling lethargic.

In other words, yes, I think Hinata could easily incorporate genjutsu into her arsenal and do so in ways that would even fool her family.

[Ironwolf]

Now add to that, the genjutsu in this case should never be applied all at once, because if your opponent has any skill or brain activity, they will notice changes on their perceptions, the genjutsu should be applied rather gradually.

[biomonkey]

I really don't like how genjutsu is portrayed in Naruto: they make it take so freaking LONG before going in for the kill. A shinobi battle is understandably fast-paced, it would only take a scant few seconds of being under it's influence to either a) make a kill or b) get in to a more favorable position in battle.

[Wittgen]

Genjutsu is only portrayed a couple of times, and it takes a bit of concentration to hold. I can't think of a time in Naruto where genjutsu was used in a way that would be irritating as you described. Care to give an example or two?

[biomonkey]

Kankuro in the second film, was under genjutsu for quite a while. Even if it turned out eventually to be a puppet, she never physically attacked him, just screwed with his head for a bit. I'll also give a canon example: Naruto against Itachi in Shippuuden. Itachi had ample time to attack him when Naruto used a Rasengan against his "kage bunshin". But with the revelation of Itachi's inner goodness, and the way the anime seems to draw out scenes, it may not be as bad as I thought

[Ironwolf]

Or Naruto never looked him in the eye, that's the thing about the Sharingan, it doesn't work quite as well if they don't meet its gaze.

[MEKristian]

Didn't Itachi FORCE Naruto to look him in the eyes? Or just get him trapped in Genjutsu by poitning at him?

[Ironwolf]

Don't remember, but then the rules concerning the Sharingan change so much, so often, I don't know why I even try anymore.

[Wittgen]

No, he just cast a genjutsu that was triggered by Naruto looking at his ring. Why/how exactly that worked? No clue.

[Kevin Schultz]

I was thinking about incredibly simply jutsus that could (in theory) be use incredibly quickly; the kind of things that won't let you win over a superior foe, but will give that edge over someone of relatively equal skill. (I'm also assuming that, if you practice a very easy and low-level jutsu enough, you can actually do it one-or-no handed, like Naruto seems to do with his Bushin occasionally. Or like characters can do in Ars Magica, for those of you who have ever played that RPG; good lord, those rules port to Naruto incredibly well...) things like:

Genjutsu

• Making your weapon appear two inches shorter than it actually is.
• Actually hitting someone with a glancing blow, and having the tagged body part go numb as a consequence. Hey, they must have gotten off a pressure point, right? A similar technique could be used with "poisoned" sennbon needles or kunai cuts.
• "Flashing" an opponent's sense of touch (to borrow a term from HERO/Champions RPG) - for a second or two, they can't feel their own bodies, even if they can see and hear themselves.
• Throwing down a noisemaker/firecracker, and making everyone "go deaf" and cause slight vertigo from the concussion.
• Basically, enhance any physical action that affects the senses by 50% or so. Not enough that anyone who experiences it automatically identifies it as a genjutsu, but enough to give you that edge when you need it.

I've recently gotten back into the martial arts (MMA and Escrima, if anyone REALLY cares) and one of the things I've been contemplating is what kind of fighting style you could put together using nothing but what amounts to "beginner's proof-of-concept" jutsus, and then training in nothing but those for years. The idea being that someone (like Naruto) could have gotten his hands on a beginner's guide to jutsus when he was younger, and atually practiced them for years to the point where he could use them instantaneously. Sure, he can't summon a fireball, but he can just glare at you and cause your hair to catch on fire...

[Ironwolf]

Just directly apply those genjutsu's into the chakra system, kinda makes it hard to notice them easily.

[Tempest Kitsune]

Y'know, all this speculation about genjutsu has led me to wonder why some ninjas haven't tried incorporating actual optical illusions into their fighting styles, like that one guy with the "stretchy arms" from Rouroni Kenshin who turns out to have used the alternating and perfectly symmetrical bands of color on his sleeves to make his arms appear to "stretch" when he throws a punch.

[Ironwolf]

Because it would be beneath them?

[Zerrat]

Because Kishi only likes Ninjutsu?

[Tempest Kitsune]

There's an old saying. "If it's stupid, and it works, it ain't stupid." There's no such thing as a trick that's "beneath" a shinobi, especially one that can give you a major edge over the opposition. And something that your enemies think is a genjutsu, up until they try and dispel it, and fail, would probably throw their game off, possibly enough to make the win that much easier. Of course you're probably talking about the Hyuuga, and those bass-ackwards ponces wouldn't use a technique unless it was as old as their family line, and developed by a Hyuuga, no matter how helpful it would be.

[MEKristian]

Because Kishi only likes Ninjutsu?

Well, it's kinda hard to have a fight were people just keep throwing illusions back and forth at each other; not quite dramatic enough.

[Wittgen]

Unless you go all out like they did for the genjutsu portion of the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight. That was actually kind of neat. Then again, it relied on the sharingan to quickly create powerful illusions.