The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke

[Kirai]

Ok but then Neji isn't a genius either. Because if you belive that he didn't deny himself a childhood you are deluding yourself. Fact is Lee is doing the same, only even harder. And he barely catches up to those two.

Additionaly you seem to think that a genius is a genius because they don't have to work as hard as somebody else to archiv something. Which is true. However a genius will generaly be better than everybody around him (or her) because he also works hard. Not insanely so like lee. But certainly at the expense of most everything else.

How those that saying go? The brightest candle bunrs the shortest? Or something to that effect. Because a genius or prodgedy often work so hard in their specific field of interest that they loose sigth of everything else. And work themself into the ground.

And no somebody working themself into the ground won't nececaryly be impressiv. If they lack the talent they might even be barely average.

Sasuke is a genius, even if he got an elevated position in the village because of his status as the last uchiha. Just because they are sucking up doesn't mean they aren't right too.

[Ironwolf]

Ok but then Neji isn't a genius either. Because if you belive that he didn't deny himself a childhood you are deluding yourself. Fact is Lee is doing the same, only even harder. And he barely catches up to those two.

Additionaly you seem to think that a genius is a genius because they don't have to work as hard as somebody else to archiv something. Which is true. However a genius will generaly be better than everybody around him (or her) because he also works hard. Not insanely so like lee. But certainly at the expense of most everything else.

How those that saying go? The brightest candle bunrs the shortest? Or something to that effect. Because a genius or prodgedy often work so hard in their specific field of interest that they loose sigth of everything else. And work themself into the ground.

And no somebody working themself into the ground won't nececaryly be impressiv. If they lack the talent they might even be barely average.

Sasuke is a genius, even if he got an elevated position in the village because of his status as the last uchiha. Just because they are sucking up doesn't mean they aren't right too.

Now I wasn't talking about Lee and Neji now was I? So try to be a little less snappy. And as for Lee not being able to keep up with Sasuke and Neji, how much of a handicap does a person who CANNOT use ninjutsu or genjustu have verses two kekkei genkai users who can? And Neji did deny himself a childhood, though it wasn't much of one considering his place in the Hyuuga clan and as such his time would have been dominated by training anyway, but also etoqute lessions and a few other things that he would need to know to properly fulfill his clan obligations, and mind you Neji had work against the Main House teaching restrictions to reach the hights he did by the time of the Chuunin exam, Sasuke had his life filled with enablers helping him (not that he wanted them in all likelihood). Seriously, I have a better opinion of Neji than I do of Sasuke, because Neji manage to figure things out for himself, sure he did need to have some sense beat into him, but sometimes we all need help.

The real problem with real geniuses, is that they generally DON'T know how to work hard, they are so used to getting things easily that the first real obstical is what throughs them off of their game, so I suppose from that stand point, Sasuke is a genius because he could handle the fact that he wasn't growing as fast as Naruto was in the same time period. My major point of contention of Sasuke being a genius, other than the fact that the term was through around soo much in the series thus far that it almost has no meaning to me now, is that no real solid evidence that actualy points it out, a lot of what he can do can come from the fact he has no life. There is no doubt in my mind that he does have a lot of talent, but as for it crossing the line into being a genius is something that I have serious reservations about, but I do recognize that he could be one, do you recognize that he might not be?

[Kirai]

Sorry for beeing snappy. I like my sarcasm and irony a wee bit too much. And I'm pretty short and to the point too, makes for beeing a bit rude in rl and even more so on the net.

Anyways, yes Sasuke could not be a genius. Doubtfull though. It seems more like you think the word genius is thrown around a bit too much in the series so you don't want it to stick to Sasuke. And what enablers? He had them up to the point of the masaker. And from then on? Nothing. Nobody but himself. And even before that. How many teachers did he have? Though I'll conced this point on account of me not remembering enough.

But after the masaker? When he was what? 7-8? He didn't have that much opportunity to learn from the clan up to that point. Afterwards he learned alone. Because the village doesn't have this policy of helping orphans out. Mental trauma is to be endured not healed. And if you are alone? At best expect that somebody has a kind word for you. At worst be Naruto.

Sasuke had only the training in the academy. That's it. Everything else he did himself. (Not counting the short period of Clan help)

Even lee had more help than Sasuke in form of Gai. Though it's questionable wheter he had that help before or after making genin so I'll let that slide as well.

And I'm talking about before the chunin exams obviously. Afterwards yeah he had help and godmoding. No question there.



As for a genious having it easy? You must have a very low oppinion of genius. I mean hello who was the genius who ****ing ruined his health by paiting the ceiling of a church? Yeah first time he didn't get what he wanted threw him of his game. Though I'll grant you that he probably didn't want to do it and was forced. He still pulled it of.

Just because today many geniuses don't have to work hard for success.(Which is up to debate because we only ever hear of the succes and not the work that went into it) Doesn't mean that it was always that way.

Again sorry if I come across as rude. I'm just not very good at beeing polite in a heated discussion^^

[Ironwolf]

Sorry for beeing snappy. I like my sarcasm and irony a wee bit too much. And I'm pretty short and to the point too, makes for beeing a bit rude in rl and even more so on the net.

Anyways, yes Sasuke could not be a genius. Doubtfull though. It seems more like you think the word genius is thrown around a bit too much in the series so you don't want it to stick to Sasuke. And what enablers? He had them up to the point of the masaker. And from then on? Nothing. Nobody but himself. And even before that. How many teachers did he have? Though I'll conced this point on account of me not remembering enough.

But after the masaker? When he was what? 7-8? He didn't have that much opportunity to learn from the clan up to that point. Afterwards he learned alone. Because the village doesn't have this policy of helping orphans out. Mental trauma is to be endured not healed. And if you are alone? At best expect that somebody has a kind word for you. At worst be Naruto.

Sasuke had only the training in the academy. That's it. Everything else he did himself. (Not counting the short period of Clan help)

Even lee had more help than Sasuke in form of Gai. Though it's questionable wheter he had that help before or after making genin so I'll let that slide as well.

And I'm talking about before the chunin exams obviously. Afterwards yeah he had help and godmoding. No question there.



As for a genious having it easy? You must have a very low oppinion of genius. I mean hello who was the genius who ****ing ruined his health by paiting the ceiling of a church? Yeah first time he didn't get what he wanted threw him of his game. Though I'll grant you that he probably didn't want to do it and was forced. He still pulled it of.

Just because today many geniuses don't have to work hard for success.(Which is up to debate because we only ever hear of the succes and not the work that went into it) Doesn't mean that it was always that way.

Again sorry if I come across as rude. I'm just not very good at beeing polite in a heated discussion^^

First off, I had a convo with RL friend about this, I don't think we really concluded whether he was or wasn't, but the point was made that the word genius has a different cultural context in Japan then in more European based countries, being they're a bit looser with it. An enabler, assuming that I got the spelling right, is a term for someone who creates an oppertunity for another person to commit an action, basically (I'm not going to effort of looking that up in my psych books or online to make sure).

Before the massacre his clan tuaght him the Grand Fireball, some kunai tricks, likely some taijutsu, other things that were not showcased, but had to have been there if he was getting such good grades...because the major advantage that the clans have is their singature skills and techniques or for a clan who copies things the next best thing, other clan's signatures.^^ But I diagress, the point is that even after the end of the Uchiha there was a lot of left over knowledge to draw from what was recorded, and with that it is a matter of hard work because Sasuke was far too emo to ever 'debase' himself into asking for help with his personal mission.[/sarcasm]

I see your using the example of Michelangelo, who is as good of an example of how far being a genius can take you, if you are in fact one, I counter with Di Vinci, also a genius, but one that quite whatever he did when started to get hard and started something else.

Yes, Lee had a lot of help to over come his handicap, the same isn't true for Sasuke and Neji, which does prove that they do have at least talent, but it also means that both could use the standard skill set for ninja's that Lee had to find a way to compensate for if he wanted to keep up. However, the fact still remains that even both Sasuke and Neji had a lot to build off of to get to where they are now, something that can be considered passive help (as opposed to someone actively working to help them).

[WarriorDrgnMage]

I would like to point out that in a culture such as Konoha where the pride is in being a ninja kids would start training basically when they walk. So consider even if Sasuke's family was slaughtered when he was eight that at least five years of ninja training and even though he probably wasn't shown the advanced moves he likely saw them often enough when his brother was training/being trained to remember them atleast dimly. This means he would try to duplicate them later on and even if he's not a genius, with that five years of solid foundation training he would be one hell of a lot closer to "genius" level then let's say Naruto who never had that so far as we know. Also a lot of martial training consists of muscle memory so the best stances the best reactions to situations and the best ways to shift your weight would be ingrained after those five years.

[jgkitarel]

Unfortunately, without proper instruction in how to do the more advanced techniques, that solid foundation becomes far less solid. He probably found a way that works, but not necessarily the right way to do them. Trust me, you can figure out how to do something you saw and do it, that does not mean you can do it properly.

[WarriorDrgnMage]

That is certainly true and I had thought of it. I just didn't mention it. Though the real question remains is Sasuke a genius? I think he is which doesn't necessarily make him the best he also seems rather lazy to me which leads to the not being the best thing.

[MrRigger2]

Where do you get that he is lazy? Especially in the early part of the series. He trains his ass off, even as young as 6-7.

MrRigger

[JumperPrime]

Where do you get that he is lazy? Especially in the early part of the series. He trains his ass off, even as young as 6-7.

MrRigger

Then Naruto learns a few new jutsu(summoning and Rasengan) and Sasuke jumps to Orochimaru's camp at his first opportunity because he thinks he isn't getting stronger fast enough in Konoha, completely ignoring the fact that Naruto surpassed him by training under Leaf ninja.

[MrRigger2]

That's not an indication that Sasuke is lazy, it's an indication that he fails at logic forever. Sasuke left because he felt he wasn't growing strong enough fast enough. Sasuke's thought process, as I understand it, was that despite all the training he was putting in, Naruto was still surpassing him. In Sasuke's mind, he wasn't taking the fast track to power, he was abandoning a failing plan. The Leaf wasn't working out for him, so he figured he'd try Sound.

Also, you have to consider that Sasuke wasn't just comparing himself to Naruto, he was looking at his progress compared to Itachi's. At thirteen, Sasuke is a stronger than average genin. At thirteen, Itachi was an ANBU captain. And he's only gotten stronger, as Sasuke saw when he tried to attack Itachi and got mind screwed for the second time.

Another thing you have to consider is that Orochimaru's curse seal is only held off by Sasuke's will, and Sasuke spent at least a month unconscious, so that was an uninterrupted month where the curse seal had to work on undermining Sasuke. So Sasuke's decisions around that time are even more suspect than normal.

MrRigger

[QuoteMyFoot]

Another thing you have to consider is that Orochimaru's curse seal is only held off by Sasuke's will, and Sasuke spent at least a month unconscious, so that was an uninterrupted month where the curse seal had to work on undermining Sasuke. So Sasuke's decisions around that time are even more suspect than normal.

Holy crap, I never thought about that before. That's a good point.

[Kirai]

Another thing you have to consider is that Orochimaru's curse seal is only held off by Sasuke's will, and Sasuke spent at least a month unconscious, so that was an uninterrupted month where the curse seal had to work on undermining Sasuke. So Sasuke's decisions around that time are even more suspect than normal.

Holy crap, I never thought about that before. That's a good point.

Not to mention the fact that he had been mindraped by Itachi again. Whatever progress towards sanity he had made... well he could wave that goodbye then.

As for the genius thing, we would probably need to define what a genius is first. Are you born one? can you work yourself towards genius status? Does it only work for the mind or also for the body? Etc.

[Nitramy]

Er, first post. :D

We could start on what a functional definition of "genius" would be with Edison's: "2% inspiration and 98% perspiration".

The question now becomes: what will Itachi do when he puts his brother under the influence of Tsukuyomi? It could be entirely possible that he conforms with canon, does the opposite thing, or pulls something from left field so that everything changes completely (assuming Itachi was also significantly affected by the divergence point).

Anyway, whether Sasuke defects or not, the end result would probably be the same (as canon), or close to it. The Naruto-Sasuke-Sakura as potential Sannin successors image may have something to do with it, or maybe the divergence point put a road cone there.

[WarriorDrgnMage]

I doubt that Sasuke's defection would have even close to the amount of impact on Naruto that it did cannon. Sasuke and Naruto were best friends in cannon and in Team 8 they are... shall we say barely civil? I think Naruto and Kiba will take a roll swap if/?when? Sasuke defects.

[unknown5064]

I think Sasuke will defect with Naruto playing a similar role as in canon.

“That’s why Sasuke’s strategy was flawed,” Kakashi-sensei said in a contemplative tone. “Taunting him did provoke a reaction, but since he couldn’t attack Neji, you took his place. Maybe you got off lightly.” With that, Kakashi-sensei reached forward and mussed Sasuke’s hair, which Sakura knew irritated him to no end.

But was that the only reason Sasuke-kun’s scowl deepened?

That last sentence there, to me, screams set up. Outrage, jealousy that 'dead last' could trash him so handily.

[Nasdaq]

Considering that his teacher just told him that not only did dead-last trounce you in one blow, breaking your jaw in the process, that was getting off EASY. As in, you're lucky his fist didn't rocket through your skull or something. :P Something to think about. That being said, honestly it's not as though we have enough information to make anything more then barely educated guesses on the matter. Personally, I can see Sasuke defecting as much as I can see him not. Either way, the entire canon is obviously, and not just because the fantastic authorlord has said so, shot to hell.

Naruto has no great motivation to chase Sasuke, which was because he was his best friend in canon, because Sasuke acknowledge him more then anyone else, in his own way. That was the core of it. Flat out, no way Sasuke will be able to claim that, so the drive to rescue him is lost, which fundamentally changes things. On one hand, if he DOES defect, it could mean that Naruto just lets him go, or at least would feel far less sympathy or sadness over it. More like anger that he would turn his back on the village. In a small way, perhaps you get almost a Kabuto-style reaction from Naruto, or how Naruto reacted to Sai when he learnt of his betrayal (abet on a larger scale.)

If he still goes for his long-term training with Jiraiya, there is little motivation to make sure he's back within the three allotted years, as he's got all the time in the world. He might not even find out about the three year thing at all, if he doesn't care. Hell, this thought brings up an entirely new concept...

What if Sasuke does leave, and gets away... and to Orochimaru in time. Or at least, in time for Orochimaru to go body snatcher on him. A massive divergence point, to be sure, but a very interesting one all the same.

In other concepts, in canon, a very convoluted set of steps was required for Sasuke to even LEARN of Itachi. First, the jounin had to fight him and Kisame, which leads to Kakashi taking severe damage. This isn't too convoluted, but it's still there. Then, you have to have Sasuke go to see him, wonder why he's all banged up, and then have a random person bust in talking about Itachi.

Then, you have to somehow have Sasuke find out Itachi is after Naruto, and where Naruto is, AND have him manage to FIND Naruto, which could be partially attributed to the fact that Naruto stands out so much. Even with that, Sasuke failed to find him at first, going to the wrong room. It's been stated that this Naruto is far less notable, given he has a lot less orange in his outfit, or at least bright neon orange. And Hinata isn't exactly an attention grabber either. So, you could end up with a situation where Sasuke doesn't even find Itachi at all, thus removing a major catalyst for his betrayal.

There is also the random chance, given the one note where Sasuke acknowledges Sakura more, and also asked for them to be trained, meaning the whole squad, that you could end up with something I think I might have to write some time: Sakura goes all love confession and offers to follow Sasuke into the gates of hell, or even Cleveland, and he actually takes her along. Wonder how THAT could go. My fanfic writing mind is already abuzz with possibilities. The idea of a Snake Sannin Sakura amuses me to no end. Almost moreso, the concept of Naruto training somewhat under Tsunade as well, or she grabs another apprentice of sorts.

Or hell, Sakura studies under Kabuto, who was said to be almost as good as Tsunade in her prime as well. Wouldn't that be an interesting duo to see...

Hell, given Hinata is going with Naruto on this, Sakura may not end up training with Tsunade at all. Who knows, maybe Hinata, who we know ALSO has good chakra control, will go instead. But I'm getting massively off topic here, so I'll bring it back for closing.

Finally, there is the option that something completely different could happen out of left field. Itachi could be vastly different due to the divergence, or not. Or he could get in over his head with Jiraiya, and end up dying, though I find that highly unlikely. But it's always possible. Not to mention any number of charlie foxtrot activities that might
result if the Hyuuga try to go after Naruto while he's out and run into Itachi.

But, again, all we've got are too many overactive imaginations and a very vibrant world to play in. Too many options to nail down one thing, or things, as even 'likely to happen.'

Edit: Adding a few things

[Stormseed]

There is also the random chance, given the one note where Sasuke acknowledges Sakura more, and also asked for them to be trained, meaning the whole squad, that you could end up with something I think I might have to write some time: Sakura goes all love confession and offers to follow Sasuke into the gates of hell, or even Cleveland, and he actually takes her along. Wonder how THAT could go.

As an evolution of this, what if all three leave? I realize that Kiba most likely wouldn't, but still...

[Tempest Kitsune]

Actually, depending on how deep the "pack mentality" that Kurenai mentioned at the very begining of the story runs, he might go with them if he sees Sasuke as his Alpha (not likely since Kakashi is the actual Team Leader, but still a possibility). Either that or he goes after them with intent to kill (since those that betray the pack don't deserve to live), regardless of orders.

[Stormseed]

Either that or he goes after them with intent to kill (since those that betray the pack don't deserve to live), regardless of orders.

Hm... what if he succeeds? Or, he gets captured and mind-whammied into serving the snake.

[Nasdaq]

I've actually already begun work on a fic using that concept, I liked it so much. But that is an interesting point. Suppose we'll see how things go, but if all three DID go... heh, team Orochimaru.

[Lochar]

That's such a very odd thought with your avatar, you realize that? :P

[unknown8356]

Keep in mind that both Sakura and Kiba still have families in Konoha. I doubt they'd leave them behind, especialy not Kiba. Sasuke on the other hand, has no one to leave behind.

Really though, his defection depends on whether he meets up with Itachi, or learns about him next chapter. In canon, learning that his sensei wasn't strong enough to stop Itachi probably contributed to his decision to abandon Konoha. Still, I don't think he will decide to join sound. Orochimaru's attack on Konoha was a much bigger failure in T8. Sasuke may see him as a much less appeling teacher.

But that doesn't mean there won't be a Sasuke Retrevial arc. There's always the possibility that Orochimaru will simply have the sound four abduct Sasuke. It makes more sense than the whole "give in to the power of the dark side" plan he had in canon. Plus being rescued by his fellow Gennin might make him realize that he can't do everything by himself.

Hopefuly Evil Authorlord will give Sasuke some good character development, like he's been doing with everyone else.

[Nasdaq]

If Sakura is as heads over heals for Sasuke as she was in canon, and was very clearly willing to go along, she might actually go. Regret it maybe, but she might go.

Suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

[Tsuki]

*Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei *
In the light of chapter 20 and 21 we see that:
-Sasuke is actually grateful for his defeat at Naruto’s hands and sees himself as the reason for weakness rather than Konohona
-wasn’t captured in Itachi’s Tsukuyomi, and probably didn’t get the speech about his lack of hatred.
-has now a common goal with team 8( killing his brother)
- Itachi seems too been member of ROOT, or at least embraced Danzo’s philosophy.
I think he has at the moment much less reason to leave Leaf, and may somehow cooperate/bond with team 8 because their common goal. Without Itachi’s mind rape he is also less psychotic and can probably think clearer. On the there is his brother conection with the ROOT leader. It may both push him to betraying Konohona because his status as an elder, or demotivate from defecting to Orochimaru if the Snake Sanin has a connection with Danzo In the Team 8 –verse. Also Our Great Authorlord's Itachi is almost certainly more evil than in canon, and could take part of younger brother role as antagonist in counterpart of Shippouen’s plot.

[jgkitarel]

Actually, the Evil Authorlord made it clear that he is portraying Itachi as the sociopath he was, a bit more, really, that everyone had seen in the early canon. It's not like anyone thought Itachi was a good guy until his motives were made truly known.

Secondly, Sasuke had a painful lesson in reality when facing off against Naruto . Throw in a month of hard training, and Sasuke realized what real training entailed. Genius or not, you're going to work your ass off. Add in that Sasuke had provoked an already furious Naruto, and he got owned by someone who had far less reason to exercise any restraint.

At least it worked to serve as an eye opener, especially if Kakashi took a moment to inform them of what he knew about Naruto's training. Kurenai may not have said much, but Gai would have likely let it slip that he had a hand in training Naruto's taijutsu, and passed on Naruto's work ethic.

Sasuke, having been on the receiving end of an angry Naruto, and watching as Naruto completely demolished Neji after training specifically for that fight