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 The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke 
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
jgkitarel wrote:
Actually, the :bow Evil Authorlord :bow made it clear that he is portraying Itachi as the sociopath he was, a bit more, really, that everyone had seen in the early canon. It's not like anyone thought Itachi was a good guy until his motives were made truly known.

Sorry I don't know my self what made me write "almost". The main question still is if Sasuke's realization that he is the source of his own weakness will truly keep him from defecting from more power? Maybe if he forms more bonds than in canon, were he was close to Naruto and to Sakura( a bit). Kakashi may try to get his team closer to team 8 to comfort them after losing their sensei(something he knows understands), and this may be the occasion. Also I think after re-reading Chapter 21 of team 8 that Jiraya almost clearly says that Itachi was in Root but his conditioning failed and resulted in madness - "We get enough of that crap from Danzo's little cult. He says that the perfect ninja has no emotions, but people that practice that nindo never seem to last. They either completely lose their personality, or they crack like Itachi did." .


July 15th, 2011, 2:33 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Actually, one of the first fics I ever read had Itachi be a double agent for Konoha. This was long before Itachi's real motives were revealed. But yes, Itachi is a full on evil bastard in this fic. And Sasuke has a different view of Konoha in Team 8 instead of in canon. In canon, Sasuke saw Konoha as holding him back. He saw Naruto, who had undergone the same training as him (I'm not sure how much knowledge Sasuke had of Naruto's training with Jiraiya) and he saw Naruto advancing much faster than him. In Team 8, Sasuke also sees Naruto progressing faster than him, but Naruto has undergone training with different teachers, so Sasuke can't blame it on Konoha as a whole, and such is less likely abandon the village.

And I wouldn't call Sasuke weak. For a genin, he's pretty damn strong. Between his own natural skills, advanced ninjutsu, and Sharingan, Sasuke is one of the top genin around. During the prelims, he just had a poor match up with Naruto. Naruto was emotionally unstable and flat out faster than Sasuke, one of the few areas where Sasuke doesn't have a direct counter.

I also wouldn't say Itachi was part of Root. Danzo pulled in agents and trained them from birth, not allowing them to form any bonds at all, and Itachi had familial bonds, something Danzo wouldn't like. Itachi was the son of the clan head, and as such far too visible for Danzo's tastes. Remember, killing emotions and severing bonds is the nindo all ninja are supposed to follow, as we hear Sakura repeating that mantra to herself in the Wave Arc, and Haku mentions killing his emotions and being a True Shinobi if necessary. Itachi is just the most prominent example of Jiraiya's opinion.

MrRigger

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July 15th, 2011, 4:10 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
MrRigger2 wrote:
And I wouldn't call Sasuke weak. For a genin, he's pretty damn strong. Between his own natural skills, advanced ninjutsu, and Sharingan, Sasuke is one of the top genin around.


Sorry, I didn't mean that Sasuke's weak, only that he sees himself to weak co complete his goal.

MrRigger2 wrote:
I also wouldn't say Itachi was part of Root. Danzo pulled in agents and trained them from birth, not allowing them to form any bonds at all, and Itachi had familial bonds, something Danzo wouldn't like.


I think that he could have been recruited later, that when he was recruited to Anbu, it was in reality Root. I Maybe even motive for Shisui's murder might been a test if he abandoned his bonds and emotions in team 8- verse( aside from the fact Shisui had an eye on him and/or getting mangekyo sharingan).


July 15th, 2011, 4:23 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
MrRigger2 wrote:
Itachi was the son of the clan head, and as such far too visible for Danzo's tastes.


Well he recruited Torune, who is the son of a important Aburame.
Sorry for the double post.


July 15th, 2011, 4:49 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Tsuki wrote:
I think that he could have been recruited later, that when he was recruited to Anbu, it was in reality Root. I Maybe even motive for Shisui's murder might been a test if he abandoned his bonds and emotions in team 8- verse( aside from the fact Shisui had an eye on him and/or getting mangekyo sharingan).


I suppose that's possible, but it goes against Danzo's established procedures and methods. I think it also diminishes Itachi's impact. What you're suggesting lays fault with Danzo for driving Itachi mad with brainwashing and indoctrination methods. From a storytelling point of view, that's not as good. Let me try to break down how I see it.

Itachi is Sasuke's villain. Itachi killed Sasuke's family and told Sasuke that he'll be waiting for him when the time comes. It's very personal.

Danzo, on the other hand, is Naruto's villain (in the Team 8 verse). He is one of the driving forces behind the conspiracy to hold Naruto back, along with Hiashi. He has, even if only indirectly, ruined much of Naruto's personal life, and it's only now getting back on track.

If Danzo was the one who drove Itachi mad, Danzo now becomes the one who really ruined Sasuke's life, and he becomes the focus for Sasuke's revenge. This transferal seems like a cop out (see one of my biggest issues with canon).

Now, there is an argument that having Danzo as a focal villain for both Naruto and Sasuke allows for yet another parallel between the two, but that's not really the theme behind Team 8 like it is for canon. In canon, Naruto and Sasuke are destined rivals and as such, the many comparisons and parallels between the two make thematic sense.

In Team 8, however, Sasuke and Naruto are not destined rivals. They're on different teams, so they aren't challenging each other on a daily (or near daily) basis. They're receiving far different teachings from very different instructors. Ever since he saw Team 7 returning from the Wave mission, Naruto hasn't felt much competition with Sasuke, apart from the preliminary fight, and at the point, Naruto's state of mind wasn't on facing his rival or showing up Sasuke, he was thinking only about Hinata and getting back to her as soon as possible.

Now, yes, Sasuke did see the preliminary fight with Naruto as a bit of a showdown between rivals, which was part of the reason why he said what he did. He saw his words as part of the build up to an awesome fight between rivals (remember, at this point, he knows Naruto has improved, and as such sees him as more worthy as being his rival). Obviously, Naruto wasn't thinking along those same lines.

I'm going to stop this now, as I'm losing my train of thought.

MrRigger

EDIT: You can edit your posts to avoid double posting. And I don't believe we know when he recruited Torune, so he could have taken him when Torune was young enough to prevent any emotional bonds from having formed. There's also the fact that the Aburame clan is far less visible than the Uchiha clan. The Aburame may be important, but the Uchiha were one of the backbones of Konoha, heading the Military Police and lending Konoha the strength of their Sharingan, one of the most powerful bloodlines around (even before all the power ups from after the time skip).

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July 15th, 2011, 5:11 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
That was actually the part that disturbed me the most about the reveal of who Danzo's bodyguards were. How the hell did Danzo get his hands on Clan kids for his crazy ass program? Orphans are easy enough to get your hands on, but you'd think clan kids would be better protected. Unless of course they were volunteered for the program, which is undoubtedly worse.

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July 15th, 2011, 5:21 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Thanks for the advice MrRigger2. Also I accidentaly started to derail this discussion from "Sasuke's defection" to "Was Itachi a member of Root". Do you think it's time to start a new topic, or can we continue like this?


July 15th, 2011, 5:23 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Oh, that's so cute. You actually think there are rails in our discussions. *pats Tsuki on the head* Thread topics are more like guidelines to our discussions. If we stumble onto something more interesting along way, we'll stick to it until something else pops up.

Our unofficial motto;

Viridian Dreams: Wait, what were we talking about?

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July 15th, 2011, 5:36 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Ok, then lets continue the derailment :cheers: !

MrRigger2 wrote:
Itachi is Sasuke's villain. Itachi killed Sasuke's family and told Sasuke that he'll be waiting for him when the time comes. It's very personal.

Danzo, on the other hand, is Naruto's villain (in the Team 8 verse). He is one of the driving forces behind the conspiracy to hold Naruto back, along with Hiashi. He has, even if only indirectly, ruined much of Naruto's personal life, and it's only now getting back on track.


Itachi
Spoiler: show
killed Kurenai
, so he's now a more personal enemy for Naruto and the rest of team 8 than Danzo. Also, I think Itachi may be the big bad, or at least a more important enemy than in canon. Look what he done in Snapped And Snapped 2.0. If team 8 gets Itachi then I think they can share Danzo. We must also remember that the rest of the Uchiha suspected Itachi of being a double agent, and that was why they sent Shisui after him.

MrRigger2 wrote:
I suppose that's possible, but it goes against Danzo's established procedures and methods. I think it also diminishes Itachi's impact. What you're suggesting lays fault with Danzo for driving Itachi mad with brainwashing and indoctrination methods. From a storytelling point of view, that's not as good.


I understand what you mean but that would make Itachi a rare tragic complete monster, and it shows how flawed is Danzo's philosofy is.

Farmer_10 wrote:
That was actually the part that disturbed me the most about the reveal of who Danzo's bodyguards were. How the hell did Danzo get his hands on Clan kids for his crazy ass program?


He may get his hands on them after some tragic event and/or when they were recruited to Anbu.


July 15th, 2011, 5:48 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
One thing we have to take into account is that Viridian has come out saying that after a certain point, he can no longer take canon into account when writing his story. Itachi is one major example. When Team 8 was begun, Itachi was insane in the membrane, pure and simple. He went crazy and killed everyone in the Uchiha clan except Sasuke, for reasons that only made sense to a madman. When Itachi's actual, canonical motivations were revealed, Viridian went on record saying he was keeping his original characterization of Itachi, and St. Itachi would not be in Team 8.

Given that originally, Danzo wasn't shown to have any manipulations in the Uchiha clan (now retconned in canon, but not necessarily so in Team 8), and Itachi was actually subject to fairly intense pressure from his father and clan as a whole, I'd say it's more likely he snapped because of his father's expectations rather than any brainwashing and manipulating on Danzo's part. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Which is more likely? That Danzo got his hands on the outrageously talented prodigy and son of the Uchiha clan head far after his preferred age point, or that Fugaku's overbearing and demanding nature wasn't just horribly damaging to Sasuke?

And Itachi doesn't have to be a product of Danzo's method to be used as an example as why it is a bad idea. Fugaku held the same idea of a perfect ninja as Danzo, and pushed his son towards that. Never underestimate how damaging family can be. Not everything has to be tracked back to the same mastermind.

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July 15th, 2011, 6:55 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
MrRigger2 wrote:
Given that originally, Danzo wasn't shown to have any manipulations in the Uchiha clan (now retconned in canon, but not necessarily so in Team 8), and Itachi was actually subject to fairly intense pressure from his father and clan as a whole, I'd say it's more likely he snapped because of his father's expectations rather than any brainwashing and manipulating on Danzo's part.


Well Danzo and the root had got a lot development after Itachi-retcon, so it still may count to get a clear picture of this organisation. Also it may have been pressure from both that made him snap.

MrRigger2 wrote:
Fugaku held the same idea of a perfect ninja as Danzo


I think he was simply very stern and not very good at expresing emotions, if we belive Mikoto's words. He still seemed to love his family and clan, so I don't belive his idea of perfect ninja was exacly the same.

MrRigger2 wrote:
When Itachi's actual, canonical motivations were revealed, Viridian went on record saying he was keeping his original characterization of Itachi, and St. Itachi would not be in Team 8.


I don't see Team 8 Itachi as a saint or his actions justified. Hitler and Voldemort were monster, but they had a very sad life that led him them becoming so evil, while their actions still are beyond justification or forgivness.


July 15th, 2011, 7:19 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
MrRigger2 wrote:
Not everything has to be tracked back to the same mastermind.
If only some writers understood this point.... :leaving: If done right, it can be awesome. But most people fail at doing it right and ends up with crappy retcons to make things match up.

Other than that comment, I agree with MrRigger, but add the personal conflict between loyalty to clan and loyalty to village on top.

Immediate Edit: Actually, do we know when Root was disbanded? I mean, it could be that Danzo's program was legal up to the Uchiha Massacre and was shut down as a result of what happened.

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July 15th, 2011, 7:26 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Good point. I can see the Third letting it go on during the war, since it most likely produced results and these were the type of soldiers that would have been most effective. Around the time the Yondaime took the seat is probably when the program got the axe. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing he'd stomach especially with the war being over.

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July 15th, 2011, 7:33 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
I feel like tracing everything back to one mastermind cheapens most stories and makes the world flat. ANyone else?

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July 15th, 2011, 8:02 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
I think it can work. If you're looking at a world where everything is run by the Evil Overlord, having everything eventually track back to him makes sense, and can be pretty effective. In a world like Naruto, where there's been a power struggle going on, with multiple fronts, tracking everything back to one grand manipulator doesn't work nearly as well. A really talented writer could pull it off, but I'd say you'd probably have to go a little AU to get it right.

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July 15th, 2011, 8:07 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
I also agree on the "most stories" front. I think it could even have worked for canon!Naruto if the execution had been a little better/different - the retconning is part of the problem. Having the canon events be the butterfly effect of the whole Madara thing (with the odd step-in here and there) would have been better, IMO. As it is, we see all the events first, without much foreshadowing, and they all get retconned back. (I think the closest we got to foreshadowing of Madara was Itachi's "then you'll be the third Uchiha with the Mangekyo". Which might not even have been revealed at the time I'm thinking of. We didn't even know Madara had even existed until Part 2.) Though I could be misremembering a bunch at this point; it's been a long time since I read the earlier parts of the manga.

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July 15th, 2011, 8:48 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
QuoteMyFoot wrote:
Which might not even have been revealed at the time I'm thinking of. We didn't even know Madara had even existed until Part 2.) Though I could be misremembering a bunch at this point; it's been a long time since I read the earlier parts of the manga.


Madara probably existed at least from the end of part I, he has his statue facing against the first there, and Sasuke thinked that his fight there with Naruto would be symbolic, so he probably at least existed as the evil Uchiha co-founder of the village. Tobi probably also was something more sinister from the very beginning, as his name means Ten tails.

Farmer_10 wrote:
Good point. I can see the Third letting it go on during the war, since it most likely produced results and these were the type of soldiers that would have been most effective. Around the time the Yondaime took the seat is probably when the program got the axe. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing he'd stomach especially with the war being over.


:agree: It probably was as you say, but I think it may took the ax even during the second war.

Psalm Of Fire wrote:
I feel like tracing everything back to one mastermind cheapens most stories and makes the world flat. ANyone else?


I understand your point, but I don't think having hand in Itachi insanity makes Danzo such type of antagonist. For me he is the leader of a political/philosophical movement standing against the main one, so from this position he may responsible at least for a large part of "strange" things within Konohona, directly and undirectly. As side note, do you think the Uchiha wanted to rebel in Team 8- verse? The only clue we have is canon, and Neji coment about the "Uchiha Madness"


July 16th, 2011, 5:26 am
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Tsuki wrote:
Madara probably existed at least from the end of part I, he has his statue facing against the first there, and Sasuke thinked that his fight there with Naruto would be symbolic, so he probably at least existed as the evil Uchiha co-founder of the village. Tobi probably also was something more sinister from the very beginning, as his name means Ten tails.

Well, yes, Madara existed, but to the best of my knowledge he hadn't been named and we had no awareness of his role in the village. A statue does not foreshadowing make. If it's supposed to be, it's very clumsy. I suspect Kishimoto was going for and "OMG! THE STATUES!" reaction, and he actually got, "Wow, that's kind of an Asspull." Although YMMV.

I acknowledge the point about Tobi. I didn't actually know what his name meant, so that would probably be more obvious to Japanese speakers (which I, unfortunately, am not). I still think that Tobi is poor foreshadowing though. Did he show up in Part 1? If he did, he had a very minor role, and whilst "ten tails" might suggest something more sinister, there was absolutely nothing to suggest any ties to Konoha, the Uchiha, or Madara's Grand Plan. Bah.

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July 16th, 2011, 11:31 am
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Yes I know it's still not the best foreshadowing, but still better than the standard retcon no jutsu. I think Kishi makes his foreshadowing vague because he often changes concepts. For a sample, more ninja were supposed to wear masks like Kakashi, and Akatsuki was apparently an organization of monsters(look at Zetsu, Kisame, Orochimaru or even Sasori) with Itachi probably as the example of a human monster.


July 16th, 2011, 12:01 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Psalm Of Fire wrote:
I feel like tracing everything back to one mastermind cheapens most stories and makes the world flat. ANyone else?


I disagree, but that is mostly because, from a thematic and stylistic point of view, I like the concept of "The devil" in fiction. By that concept I mean: The evil mastermind that from the shadows manipulates the negative emotions, feelings, thoughts, temptations and ambitions already present in human beings, then exacerbates them and uses them to further his own goals. He may not neccesarily be the "seed of evil" per se, as "doing evil" is a natural condition of the human being (just like the capacity for "doing good"), but precisely because he has a great understanding of the human nature, he can manipulate and benefit from the darkest aspects of it with mastery. For me, that kind of thing makes for an excellent villain and an excellent conflict for a story.

Now, Mr. Rigger has a point in that too many writters fail at doing this "central evil mastermind" properly (retcons and "arc whelding" are certainly the most common reasons), but there are stories that have actually done it in excellent ways (Full Metal Alchemist in any of its variants inmediatly comes to my mind).

As to Naruto, one of the reasons why I like the character of Madara so much is because I believe he is a very effective "devil" (Orochimaru was another excellent "devil" by the way, but certain elements of his character were always repelent to me, though that is a discussion for another ocassion). Of course, I agree that the overall Akatsuki plot was not done as well as it could have been done, and the execution has been very sloppy at times. But I don't think it's a matter of the retcons or lack of foreshadowing, rather I believe said problems are more a result of what may actually have happened: What Tsuki mentions about Kishimoto changing concepts. Looking at some of the early volumes of part II, it seems to me that Kishimoto had already planned a certain plotline for the Akatsuki but something happened and he changed his mind (look at the "original" plan that Pain originally told to Hidan and Kakuzu and compare it to what he told to Jiraiya, then compare that with what turned out to be Madara's actual plan).

Nevertheless, on principle and in theory, I think the overall idea of a shadowy organization and its nefarious leader seeding and manipulating the conflicts already present in the Ninja world with the aim of using the bijuu to conquer the world, can make for an excellent story. I even think the "Moon's eye plan" can work well as a plot. Overall I don't think canon Naruto is as bad as many people paint it, I just think it needs refinement (a lot in certain areas, less in others).

Now, I personally believe that at the end of part I, Kishimoto already had in mind (if not properly or completely defined) that an Uchiha was going to be the leader of the Akatsuki and the major enemy of the series. There are four hints of it. Two have already been mentioned: The statues at the valley of the end and the mention by Itachi of the Third Mangekyo user. The third (and the more critical one, IMO) is what Itachi says to Sasuke about looking in the shrine for the scroll with the secret about the true purpose of the Sharingan and the Uchiha clan. That is the first time that the "accursed blood" of the Uchiha clan and their connection to the Kyuubi it's mentioned (and then, the second arc of part II is the first time that the name of Madara is mentioned by the Kyuubi itself). The fourth it's the simple fact that Zetsu (who at the beginning of part II was explained to be the scout of the Akatsuki) was an expectator of the fight between Naruto and Sasuke, hinting that the organization was not only interested in Naruto but in Sasuke as well.

It seems to me that, originally, the shadowy figure with the "strange eyes" that knew a lot about Konoha and the way the ninja world worked, and that was only referred as "the Akatsuki leader" (and who eventually became the character we now know as Nagato/Pain) was originally going to be Madara (indeed, while "the 4th Hokage is the Akatsuki leader" was a very common theory back then, I do remember a couple of forums where "Madara Uchiha is the Akatsuki leader" was mentioned). It's also possible that Tobi was going to be something really sinister (if not neccessarily at the level it got) from the beginning, by what Tsuki mentions, by the fact that he did was introduced with captions that hinted at something ominous, and by the fact that, even if the character was portrayed as a buffoon, it was just easy to suspect there was something up with him given the other members of the organization as well as his own appearance (to be among such group of psychos and freaks, there had to be something really sinister behind that mask and armor).

Of course, given what I have mentioned previously (that I believe the Akatsuki plotline was changed from the original plan), I suppose that at some point Kishimoto decided that "shadowy figure = Madara" didn't have enough impact and changed it for "Tobi = Madara".

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July 19th, 2011, 6:39 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
doc.exe wrote:
Overall I don't think canon Naruto is as bad as many people paint it, I just think it needs refinement (a lot in certain areas, less in others).
Agreed agreed agreed! Post-timeskip reads like a second draft: lots of good, refinements still needed. And I'm definitely one of the ones espousing its qualities to those who are dissing it.

Creating a sort of devil-on-earth archetype can be excellent. It has tons and tons of strong qualities for a story to take hold of. And I agree with what you're saying about it being a viable option.

The problem I'm having is that Madara hasn't convinced me he's either clever or effective. Sauron wasn't too clever by the third age, but he did have hundreds of thousands of minions and the power of those twisted by the ring. He was effective. He was also had viable means to accomplish everything that it says he did.

For Madara, I have a hard time seeing that. Sauron wanted to crush a town: send thousands of orcs. Madara wanted the Rinnegan to be in the hands of someone else (why?) who could create an organization (why?) in order to put forward a false front to collect powerful rogue ninja to collect the Bijuu to do the Moon's Eye plan. So he gives it to some random Ame orphan. What? How is that protecting those incredibly valuable eyes? And if he had more than one set (which it seems he does), why not hedge your bets and give it to many? Why are you relying on a thousands of variables to work out juust right so that 15 years down the road you can use this guy as the head for your organization (of questionable necessity)? Unless he's supernatural and can pull the threads of fate, this seems very foolish to me, not to mention a bit like Yzma.
Spoiler: show


So the only reason I can see right now that his plan is working is because the script says so. And that does no favors to my suspension of disbelief. If he wasn't responsible for the rinnegan being in Nagato's head, none of this would be a problem.

Another thing that's hard on the suspension of disbelief is the idea that the Moon makes a proper jutsu reflection device. Does dirt? I mean, sure the sage of six paths may have made it, but if he made it like Nagato did, its still made out of dirt. Without any foreshadowing to this possibility, it makes Madara look, to me, a bit like a classic James Bond villain or really out of touch with reality. The only reason it will work is because the script says so.

Because of this, it shrinks the world and cheapens the experience for me. Fortunately, my mind contains "saved" version of the Manga before most major revelations, meaning it doesn't RUIN THE WHOLE STORY as some people have a problem with.

Again, I love the manga and I appreciate Kishimoto. I'm not hating, I think his work is fantastic and has given me the most enjoyment of possibly any fictional work I have ever consumed and taken a part of. I love it. But I do like to take things apart and analyze them, and find which components I do and don't want to include in my own work.

(btw, I love discussions like this to, yay!!!)

((I'll SMASH IT WITH A HAMMA - SMASH IT WITH A HAMMA - SMASH IT WITH A HAMMA... it's brilliant Brilliant BRLILLAINT!~))

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July 19th, 2011, 7:46 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
Now, I agree, the evil mastermind can be a very effective villain. You mentioned Full Metal Alchemist, which is a great example, and another good example off the top of my head is Lex Luthor. Perhaps not as all inclusive as Father from FMA, but Lex has had his fingers in so many pies, and screwed with Superman (and other heroes) in so many ways, from so many directions, he can make a very convincing Evil Mastermind.

And in the world of Naruto, where the main forces are ninja, having the main villain be an Evil Mastermind makes sense. My biggest problem is that it was poorly executed. Nagato/Pein was set up as the Leader of Akatsuki (even called Leader for a period of time) and if he had actually been the Evil Mastermind behind Everything, I think it would have worked. But Nagato was revealed to be a puppet for Madara, and Madara was then revealed to be a giant troll. And his plan has potential, but again, fails to live up to that potential. A genjutsu that effects everyone on the planet and destroys free will? That sounds familiar...

Oh yeah, the Anti-Life Equation from DC Comics. Not a perfect analogue, granted, but it's a grand plan sought after by one of the biggest bads in the universe (in this case, Darkseid), that the end result has the Big Bad controlling the world, having destroyed free will. The Big Bad stomps all over all challengers, only being defeated by a certain hero.

But Madara fails where Darkseid succeeded. When Darkseid showed up, he killed anyone who challenged him. He made himself a real, visible threat. Madara showed up in front of the hero, trolled them with his "can't touch this" act, then said "Trollface.jpg out" once he heard Sasuke was done fighting. This doesn't really make him a threat, despite being able to do so (he could have used Amaretsu to incinerate one or more of Naruto's group). On the other hand, Pein showed up and destroyed Konoha, tearing apart the biggest and baddest fighters Konoha could bring to bear, until Naruto showed up.

Looking over the post, I'm not sure I'm making sense, but I'm losing my train of thought again, so I'm going to stop while I'm behind.

MrRigger

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July 19th, 2011, 8:25 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
No, I think you were mostly making sense there. Pein had all the hallmarks of a threatening Big Bad, but when he was revealed to only be the Dragon to Madara, who proceeded to not directly attack the heroes, it was a combination of anti-climatic and frustrating - because he COULD be a bigger threat than Pein, combat wise, but he's not using that potential. Is that about right?

I somewhat agree with you, but I have to confess that I love troll!Madara. Can't Touch This no Jutsu is hilarious AND a legitimately scary S-rank technique.

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July 19th, 2011, 8:58 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
I love troll Madara too. If the rinnegan and a few other things hadn't been traced back to his hands, I'd be fine with it. If he was just trolling the world and wanted to remove war at the same time, I'd be cool with that. But this "it was all part of the plan" stuff makes me face-palm really hard, because any plan set up like is just preposterous.

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July 19th, 2011, 10:04 pm
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Unread post Re: The Defection of Uchiha Sasuke
@Mr. Rigger and Quote:

I suppose that the difference in our way of thinking about Madara lies is this simple fact: When he was revealed to be the puppet master behind the person everyone thought was the Akatsuki leader (and said “leader” turned out to still be an incredibly powerful and dangerous opponent), I didn’t found that anticlimactic or frustrating in the less.

I suppose it had to do, in part, with the “ninja theme” of the series, but my first thoughts were something like this: “So this guy has been posing around as a fool all this time in front of me and everyone else in the audience, when in truth, he is the real mastermind behind EVERYTHING. He has been laughing behind EVERYONE, even those this side of the 4th wall. Not only that, but he just causally orders around the Akatsuki leader as if he was second class to him. Wow! This guy is AWESOME!”

Later things like the revelation that he was behind the Kyuubi attack and the Uchiha massacre contributed to create a sense of allure in me. The fact that his first moment in action was to “troll” and “play” with the heroes, preventing them from reaching Sasuke in time, just to leave at the end without even bothering to kill them, as if they were nuisances that didn’t even require his attention… Well, that established him as a serious menace in my book, and it continued from there.

Now, analyzing the entire plot carefully, I do believe the “Tobi = Madara” was a retcon of sorts, but given the impact it had in me when that plot revelation came, I still like it (indeed, while it could have been done better, I think it has been one of the few effective retcons of the series).

@Psalm:

Don't worry, I understand your points as I do tend to analyze and overanalyze things. Taking things apart and seeing how they work is just too fun, and obviously certain things will not work (and probably will never work) once you have paid attention to all the little details. That being said, as long as my mind can provide a possible explanation, these days I tend to not have much issue with certain "transgressions" of fictional works.

As to Madara, I get what you mean with he being a “classic Bond villain”. Once again, analyzing the entire plot, his master plan is so ridiculously complex, so over the top and so full of many random variables, that in all fairness, it would not work unless the script said so. But then again, I don’t think “a classic Bond villain” may be a bad thing if said villain and his ridiculous over the top plans are actually fun to watch (and I do consider Madara and his stupidly outlandish plans fun to watch, even if I do agree it could have been done better).

This is in part as well because my mind has provided a serviceable explanation for his actions based in his overall characterization. I consider him an effective villain and a serious menace not because he has an infallible plan, but because he seems to have A LOT of plans and back-up plans that aim at an overall goal, and a knack for improvising when things don’t go according to said plans. While he has been foiled in the past, he always manage to reemerge, always with a new plan that’s more sinister than the last one, and always taking advantage of whatever circumstances arose during his previous attempt to prepare the next, all with the aim of ensuing the Moon’s eye plan one day.

The fact that he is practically immortal and capable of going anywhere contributes to the alluring factor: It doesn’t matter if his previous plan failed, because he will always have time to prepare the next. He also ensured that his existence remained unknown for most people of the Ninja world, which was probably his biggest advantage over almost everyone else. In that sense, I don’t really have a problem with he using someone else to create an organization in order to do his bidding (indeed, it seems some of his plans are so convoluted because he tried to maintain his anonymity at all costs).

Certainly, the part of the Moon being used to reflect the Tsukoyomi is completely ridiculous, but… well, even if it’s a really cheap explanation, in a world were children can become Ninja at age 6, where said ninja can walk in water, walls and ceilings, use hand signs to produce balls of fire and all the other elements out of thin air (or of their mouths!), summon giant talking animals, create duplicates that move and think independently, and in the most advanced cases, move entire mountains, make a desert turn into a giant tanooki maw, create nuclear bombs out of clay, destroy a city just with a gravitational push, and overall, violate practically every Physics law that exist… well, let’s just say that my suspension of disbelief can resist the Moon being used to reflect the most powerful genjutsu ever.

The part of he being the one who granted Nagato the Rin’negan is the only one so far that has really bugged me. I have formulated and seen some theories to explain it (one of the more interesting ones is that he might have only achieved that by sacrificing one of his perfect Mangekyo Sharingan with the Izanagi), but ultimately, I have decided to reserve judgement on that until it’s explained what exactly he did (not to mention that is always possible he was lying to Konan when he said that).

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Last edited by doc.exe on July 19th, 2011, 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.



July 19th, 2011, 10:51 pm
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