Finished re-reading Team 8....

[Thrythlind23]

...a couple of hours ago.

Still thoroughly enjoy it...and it's getting to be something like the Hearts of Ice of Naruto fic....the good way and the bad way


anyway...just something I thought of

The chunin exams can't be the only promotion mechanic....they're a multi-national affair when nations have only been at peace in the last two generations or so....and it doesn't make sense to use such a method during war time when you don't want to put too many soldiers out of commission of any rank for too long...

cancelling the chunin exams, can't possibly prevent the Hokage from promoting anybody he sees fit to promote if he wants to...

also, logistically, they're going to need more chunin

in the invasion, the number of chunin who resisted the sleep genjutsu will be significantly higher percentage wise than the number of genin

that means that in the initial stage of the fight, which seems to have lasted for minutes based on the text, it will be chunin of Konoha and other places being somewhat outnumbered by Sound and Sand....even without the giant snake that means people are likely to die...

those most likely to be dead are those who were involved in the fighting before the genjutsu was cancelled and things had started turning bad for the invaders....helpless victims as well, but the Sound and Sand would probably leave them for later and deal with the awake and dangerous first...

that means that the largest casualty rate in the village will be in those of its chunin skilled enough to resist the genjutsu

they can move some chunin into other positions, have some chunin work double duty, have jonin work chunin tasks....but the situation the village is left in also means that more work is going to be needed while their are fewer men to do it...

likely, at least in the short term, genin will be doing chunin rank....any that do it long term will need to be promoted in order to have the authority of the rank to support their duties...

a promotion freeze is unfeasible at the current point...

and, sense they just had chunin exams, they know that the top of the list includes Shino, Naruto and Shikamaru

the situation might require appointing more chunin than that, depending, and opening up the position to genin that didn't get quite as high

however, in canon, they only eventually promoted Shikamaru, as far as we know, so they might feel they can get away with not promoting anyone...then again, we don't know how many people got promoted immediately after Naruto left the village...since he likely left on the training thing within three to four months of the exam....so they might be able to hold off on promotions for a couple of months in this situation since Konoha came out better than prior...

*********************************

Also, I'm not really seeing the Itachi thing as a shark jumping....I don't really look at any one thing as a shark-jumping....each plot point has been predictable and believable in and of itself....I can even imagine them fitting together easily enough...even the moon's eye plan (which is rather more of a shark jump than the Itachi thing....really, there was LOADS of foreshadowing on Itachi being secretly good-ish) is handled well enough in and of itself....

no, it's not the plot or the revelations or what not....it's the execution of handling them that's Kishimoto's problem.....his scene cuts are rather harsh and sometimes hard to follow, he doesn't handle mesh plot points very well....having a more "ram the jigsaw pieces together and hope it works" method...

he uses red herrings as opposed to letting the audience misconstrue a vague piece of truth that can lead both to the wrong and the right conclusions...

so, I have little to no problem with the plot....only its execution is fuzzy...

[WarriorDrgnMage]

I personally have less of a problem with Itachi being good than I do with the rampant huge glaring plot holes that Kisimoto leaves:

(Itachi being good is actually one of them but I'll leave that alone)
How could Sasuke not know about the plot to over throw Konoha he's the clan leader for f*@# sake!?
How is Naruto not better then Sasuke after the time skip, if Naruto had been fresh like Sasuke At the World's End fight he would have whipped Sasuke's butt
Why doesn't Kakshi train team 7 more, he frickin' nominated them for Chuunin or god's sake and the Sandaime just lets Kakshi carry on not training them....

Anyway's that all I can think of right now...

But honesty I think a better way to describe Kishimoto in general is that he's Excellent at World Building but not very good at the writing part (Kinda like George Lucas actually...meh...) Kishi rushes to sling these plot points out but doesn't do a good job because he sucks at the build up like you said

[Thrythlind23]

The Sasuke one makes sense, Sasuke was a kid at the time, they wouldn't have told him anything. He wasn't the clan leader, sort of, until afterwards, and then everyone who knew about it was dead or else not talking.


The others are characteristic of Kishimoto's ram it together style.

[WarriorDrgnMage]

Itachi and Sasuke's father is the Uchiha Clan Patriarch, if there was a plot to over throw Konoha he would have been the one leading it. Which means that Sasuke would have seen or heard something suspicious even if only in passing because the main conspirator was his father.

[Phht]

Except ninja. What kind of ninja would he be if he couldn't keep the plans hidden from a 6 year old kid? And if he failed at that, how in the world did the entire village not know of the planned coup?


... That would actually probably make an amusing crack fic.

[TraceReading]

Enough people knew about the planned coup that they were able to come up with a countermeasure. Not a very GOOD one, mind, but a countermeasure all the same.

[doc.exe]

Well, those people only knew because they planted a double agent who happened to be the elder son of the clan’s patriarch.

I think something to take into account is that, son of the clan's leader or not, prodigy or not, ninja in training or not, Sasuke was only 6-8 at the time. Even if they heard or saw something suspicious, most children of his age would just not understand what’s the deal with the adults and their “weird conversations/secret reunions/important secret documents/whatever”.

Indeed, one of the overdosed flashback chapters (I think it was chapter 401 or 402) actually dealt with the issue: Sasuke reflects on the conversations he saw between Itachi and members of his clan (including his parents) in the days prior to the massacre and only then he realizes something was amiss, and that Tobi might be telling the truth about the Uchiha planning a coup d’etat and Itachi being a double agent.

[Thrythlind23]

Also, Sasuke was not considered a prodigy until after he turned Avenger.....he's not so much a genius as he is a very focused (obsessed) and hard working person....

at least he was before he hit "powers as plot demands" zone

[BobVosh]

1. How is Naruto not better then Sasuke after the time skip, if Naruto had been fresh like Sasuke at the World's End fight he would have whipped Sasuke's butt
2. Why doesn't Kakshi train team 7 more, he frickin' nominated them for Chuunin or god's sake and the Sandaime just lets Kakshi carry on not training them....

1. Sharigan. Seriously, it let Sasuke get Lee's speed after watching him once. Along with the chidori. In a month. Imagine with it with a dedicated sensei for 3 years, as opposed to a PTSD burn out. Also I don't see Jiraiya being the most dedicated teacher in terms of teaching pure strength. He taught more along the lines of how to figure out techniques, presumably so Naruto can try and learn Hirashin or make his own techniques.
2. PTSD burnout is my theory, but either way we don't know if they had off screen training practice. How much would you have wanted to watch Naruto run in circles, punch logs, then do sit ups? I never understood most FF obsession with spending 10k or more words with describing exercises.

Well, those people only knew because they planted a double agent who happened to be the elder son of the clan’s patriarch.

I think something to take into account is that, son of the clan's leader or not, prodigy or not, ninja in training or not, Sasuke was only 6-8 at the time. Even if they heard or saw something suspicious, most children of his age would just not understand what’s the deal with the adults and their “weird conversations/secret reunions/important secret documents/whatever”.

Indeed, one of the overdosed flashback chapters (I think it was chapter 401 or 402) actually dealt with the issue: Sasuke reflects on the conversations he saw between Itachi and members of his clan (including his parents) in the days prior to the massacre and only then he realizes something was amiss, and that Tobi might be telling the truth about the Uchiha planning a coup d’etat and Itachi being a double agent.

I assume every so often in a ninja village there is a lot of secret, behind doors chatting. Assuming that the coup was just an extended one wouldn't be out of order for an 8 year old who really wants nothing more than attention. Lonely and desperate kids rarely put any thought behind anyone's motive beyond why aren't they paying attention to me.

[doc.exe]

2. PTSD burnout is my theory, but either way we don't know if they had off screen training practice. How much would you have wanted to watch Naruto run in circles, punch logs, then do sit ups? I never understood most FF obsession with spending 10k or more words with describing exercises.

That is a good point, maybe the training is not shown because those training scenes are not important to the narrative.

Although, being fair, there are series that manage to portray normal training (the character running laps, doing push-ups, sit-ups, etc.) while conveying exposition about other topics relevant to the plot (even this series does it, e.g. the scenes with Lee backstory). And of then there is the extreme: Making the training scenes amusing to watch because they are Training from Hell (Kenichi: The Mightiest Discipline is probably the best example).

[BobVosh]

True, but the two times training has been done it was basically done solo. Even tree climbing was done together, they never really spoke. In fact Sakura left early and didn't hang around.

Although they easily could have talked to each other, the only thing relevant to the plot that they knew was the massacre. Which I doubt Sasuke would do, and even Naruto isn't that crass.

As for training from hell, I doubt Kakashi would do that without a very good reason to some rookies when it is obvious that he doesn't want for some reason.

As for the logic behind it, well...logic doesn't enter into the Narutoverse much. For example: Pretty much anything Sasuke has done, ever. Minor theory on why below if you want.

Spoiler: show

I have a theory about Sasuke, which explains his complete lack of logical forethought: he heard Kakashi praise Naruto in the Wave arc for being the number 1 surprising ninja. Sasuke then was number 2 to Naruto in something. This he could not stand, so every time he makes a decision it must not make any rational sense.

[JamestheFox]

So...

Spoiler: show

"Now, I will destroy the Leaf Village!" Sasuke laughed.

Even wounded and near death, Kakashi still had the strength to groan. "... Geez, you're making no sense. This is the most surprising thing you've ever done, Sasuke! I don't think even NARUTO could surpass your insanity!"

"... Really? Would you say... I'm the number one most unpredictable ninja?"

"... er... yeah."

"Huh. Cool." Sasuke sheathed his sword. "I'm done. See ya."

"... What."

[Ristridin]

So...

Spoiler: show

"Now, I will destroy the Leaf Village!" Sasuke laughed.

Even wounded and near death, Kakashi still had the strength to groan. "... Geez, you're making no sense. This is the most surprising thing you've ever done, Sasuke! I don't think even NARUTO could surpass your insanity!"

"... Really? Would you say... I'm the number one most unpredictable ninja?"

"... er... yeah."

"Huh. Cool." Sasuke sheathed his sword. "I'm done. See ya."

"... What."

Best Naruto ending ever.

[doc.exe]

Errr… I was just pointing out how some stories deal with showing training scenes without making them boring to the audience or irrelevant to the plot, not talking about Naruto in particular.

[jgkitarel]

Most of those are also either hilarious, in the schadenfreude sense, or actually give some major point to the plot (usually right before the trainer is killed).

[MortisMage]

How is Naruto not better then Sasuke after the time skip

I know this is old, but, hey.

It's not really clear-cut. Naruto didn't/doesn't want to fight or kill Sasuke, that's his character. When Sasuke appeared, he was being far more ruthless. So Naruto being or not being "better" then Sasuke isn't a very good question; neither of those fights involved Naruto fighting at his mental best.

That said, Naruto trained with Jiraiya, a skilled, but whimsical man, and Naruto isn't godlike at studying. Sasuke, on the other hand, is more proficient (literally) at copying/studying/imitating. He was studying with Orochimaru, a cold and seemingly merciless person, and thus, his training methods were probably a lot more direct and efficient.

While I think Sasuke took to his teachings better than Naruto did, Naruto still has him on the brute force end of things.

That said, as for Naruto being "fresh", I don't think it would have mattered. The Curse Seal came with a lesser drawback as opposed to the One-Tailed State. I really think Naruto got some good hits in, but Sasuke wasn't hesitant, whereas Naruto was. Ultimately, Naruto took more hits in that fight.

[jgkitarel]

Of course, things are a bit different in the fic, with Naruto having a work ethic that makes Gai cry manly tears and would have Nanoha taking notes.

[Wraith5]

Of course, things are a bit different in the fic, with Naruto having a work ethic that makes Gai cry manly tears and would have Nanoha taking notes.

Great... now I've got this mental image of Naruto becoming a joining one of those "Gai-sensei!" "Lee!" scenes...

[jgkitarel]

And rainbows shine in the background over an ocean of ramen.

[Dechstreme]

I shall murdelize those who put those horrible images in my mind.

[jgkitarel]

I shall murdelize those who put those horrible images in my mind.

Now, which sadistic spawn of the White Devil would do that?

[Dechstreme]

Oh, look there you are....

[macdjord]

Interesting as that digression was, I think one of the points from the OP deserves more attention - why can't the Hokage promote Naruto? Even with the exams officially cancelled, what's stopping him just from promoting those who deserve it with his own authority? Naruto, for one, took out multiple jonin and a berserk jinchuuri, which is more than ground for a battlefield promotion.

[Dechstreme]

Because promoting them could cause unneeded friction too soon. Sarutobi, and now Tsunade, aren't in a strong enough position that they can do things that could antagonize the members of the conspiracy into doing something they can't properly defend against.

[Wraith5]

It's just like on a ship. If the captain makes enough unpopular decisions, the crew will mutiny. Quite simple, actually. I mean, what could the Hokage really do if the entire Hyuuga clan (well, except for Hinata, Neji would be forced to...) just up and decided to leave? Let's be honest. Probably "not much," right? < And that's not even taking the council into account.