A Discussion on 'Villains made Good Guys' Pairings

[Arganaut]

In fandom, the phrase "True love conquers all" seems to be a pretty commonly used excuse when pairing up two people from opposing sides of a conflict in the canon of whatever fandom they're apart of. The idea that the bad guy (or girl) upon meeting a good girl (or guy) will, in time, fall deeply and madly in love with this person, to the degree that they switch sides and join the good group in the name of love.

We've seen it accomplished in canon-storytelling before, and we've seen many stabs at making it seem feasible from many different authors and artists who ardently believe in these pairings. Though this spans back for a while, the ones I'm pretty sure are most ardently ingrained in our near term memory are, of course, Zutara from Avatar: The Last Airbender, Dramoine from Harry Potter (which is sadly a legitimate fan pairing, having more stories posted in its section on FF.net than the canon Romione), and Ulquihime from Bleach.

Now, were this any other board I'd be loath to post a topic dealing with pairings that follow this formula. Its equivalent to throwing a live hand-grenade into a cave filled with metal bears: you're not going to kill any of them, you're just going to make them angry and attempt to maul you. Of course, given that this is the Authorlord's forum itself, and that the discussions I've seen take place here are quite polite and concise, I feel safe in bringing up my thoughts without fear of inviting a flame war.

I just needed to get this off my chest in an environment where I was sure civilty would take place, rather than (another) headache inducing round of just internet shouting at someone over this or that. So let me say that I don't wish to insult anyone, and that if I do end up insulting you, please don't take it personally. Its just about sun-rise where I am, and my mother's two dogs have basically kept me up throughout the night, leaving me with no sleep. Again, no harm meant on my part.

So, let me start off by saying this: I find pairings that follow this formula to be, in general, rather bothersome and ill conceived. While there are two notable exceptions I have in mind to this feeling, the general attitude I have towards situations like this is that the writing usually isn't up to par in order to properly convey the character development that would be required to take place in order to make this formula work. Most of the time, especially in the cases when the fandoms get involved, the writing comes off as rather silly and desperate, as cold-blooded killers and villains, whom have been stead fast in their ways for years and have committed several crimes or countless atrocities, are so easily brought over to the good side simply by dropping a good person of the opposite sex (or same sex in some of the fringe fandoms) in front of them.

Never mind that for these pairings to take place, we'd have to start considering Lima and Stockholm Syndrome, not as psychological abnormalities developed by prolonged periods of stress, but as perfectly viable and, indeed, desired building blocks in a long lasting relationship. Never mind that in a lot of these cases, the villains whom are turned were, before their turn, practically complete monsters who, not only killed people, but also either killed without remorse for their actions or, in a minority of cases, enjoyed it.

Ulquihime, for me, personifies the above. Let me first start off by saying that I pity Ulquiorra a lot. The poor bastard was doomed to a fandom status revolving around a 'Draco in leather pants' trope from the beginning simply because, for a monster who threatens to tear out the heart of one of the female secondary characters, he's a good lookin' fella. More to the point, my failure in judgment was in having too much faith in the fandom not to develop a pairing revolving around Ulquiorra and HIS CAPTIVE, Orihime. After all, the guy and the group he's apart of is basically about to destroy everything she's ever known or cared about, with Ulquiorra himself threatening to kill her...

Yeah, I forgot who exactly I was putting my faith in.

The pairing would work better if Ulquiorra actually showed any tendency towards having a soul, or a personality, or interests, or actual character beyond being a villain. This is just from my perspective, but it seems to me that the basic building block of this pairing isn't what's actual there, but what the fandom can imagine being there if only Ulquiorra would just suddenly change and accept that, deep down, he's really a good guy.

Of course, this pairing for me isn't nearly as bad as Dramoine, which stands as one of the exemptions... because I absolutely cannot stand this... do I really even need to go into why this is a terrible idea, on this forum of all places? Should I go into the various ways I'd torment the souls of all Dramoine shippers for having even thought such an abomination should exist? Do I have to tear out the last remnant of my sanity as I dive into what my roommate once lovingly described as 'Pure Grade-A Bull ****'.

No? Okay then, moving onto Zutara. This is another exception, but instead one that proves the rule. Let me start off by saying that, at the beginning, I had the same views of Zutara as I did of other pairings using this premise. You're just randomly pairing off a guy and girl over one damn scene involving him strangely placing a necklace around her neck. That's pretty much it. The season one Zutara fandom participants had my fair share of apathy, and even going into Season 2 I had more strong feelings for my preferred pairing, TophAang. The reason why the exception is in place is because... well, the writing for the show improved over the course of Season 2, especially when it came to Zuko's development as a character. Instead of being the gun-ho 'I have to reclaim my honor!' villain(ish) for the series, Zuko started to become a more sympathetic and complex character. It was only after the Season 2 finale that I began to give Zutara any credence, a status that only increased as Season 3 rolled along.

The reason why I say Zutara stands as the exception that proves the rule is because, while the pairing had its routes in the 'True love conquers all' formula, by the time there was real empirical evidence that the pairing could take place in canon, Zuko was pretty well established as an Anti-Hero leaning towards Hero, his eventual change to the good side not having really much of anything to do with Katara.

There's one more pairing I'd like to talk about, one that I think really fired off this recent trend... but that's a whole kettle of fish I'd rather not go prodding at while I'm sleep deprived.

So... that's pretty much the entire monkey I had on my back for a while. I'm willing and open to discussion on any of these points, so long as we keep it more civil than I likely did in my cranky-writing state.

[MrRigger2]

I'm going to say I agree with you for the most part, but I feel that it's a little easier to redeem someone like Zuko or even Draco than someone like Ulquorria (I know I'll never spell that damn name correctly). That said, I think the story is far more interesting when you have a villain get together with another villain. And I don't mean in an abusive, I'm going to betray you relationship that writers seem to believe villains are only capable of. I mean together and in love like Morticia and Gomez Addams, only actually evil instead of merely creepy and kooky.

That's a great twist for if you're looking for something new for your gaming group. Have the PCs find out that the two villains are both looking for the same thing, and try and turn them against each other, only to find that that won't work at all.

MrRigger

[Chuckg]

No fooling. Draco at least can be redeemed by starting in year 1 or 2 and going notably AU from there. IOW, you have to completely redo a significant portion of his life, but at least its an alternate-timeline version of the same person, drawing on at least some canon shared with the mainline. Its at least remotely possible, if not canon at all.

But from my (admittedly very limited) Bleach knowledge, redeeming Ulquiorra requires a completely personality rewrite ab initio, to the point where its an OC using a familiar name.

[Arganaut]

I'm going to say I agree with you for the most part, but I feel that it's a little easier to redeem someone like Zuko or even Draco than someone like Ulquorria (I know I'll never spell that damn name correctly). That said, I think the story is far more interesting when you have a villain get together with another villain. And I don't mean in an abusive, I'm going to betray you relationship that writers seem to believe villains are only capable of. I mean together and in love like Morticia and Gomez Addams, only actually evil instead of merely creepy and kooky.

That's a great twist for if you're looking for something new for your gaming group. Have the PCs find out that the two villains are both looking for the same thing, and try and turn them against each other, only to find that that won't work at all.

MrRigger

I have to agree with you on the villain to villain relationship. Its hardly ever done, which is something that admittedly needs changed.

And here's the thing you just described about Draco: you're talking about an AU. I'm talking about situations where Draco grows up in much the same way with much the same circumstances, but just swaps over to the good side over his hormones. Though I still really don't like the pairing, I can find it at least not nearly as poisonous if its an AU under those circumstances...

And you just made me want to watch the Adams Family again.

[gman391]

Now I'm probably going to commit a mild blasphemy.....
But I believe that any pairing can be made to work....if the writer has enough skill to do so. It's up to the writer and the general public to realize that certain pairings are far to difficult to be attempted unless your a master. And they do exist.

The problem is that we hear all about the horrible fanfictions. The ones that don't make sense, that bash, that have more plot hole than they do plot, that don't use grammar, that ignore or trivialize things for the sake of the pairing.

We don't hear about the ones that succeed in everything they set out to do and well....because they're languishing in a group we won't go into with out being tortured.

Could I write any of those pairings?

Maybe....but I'm honest enough to admit that my skills as a writer aren't equal to the task. But then I don't write romance precisely because I know that I'm not that good at it.

Don't blame the ship for the shippers. That's all I ask.

And really Arganaut trusting the fandom not to ship the bishonen? what's wrong with you?

[MrRigger2]

Now I'm probably going to commit a mild blasphemy.....
But I believe that any pairing can be made to work....if the writer has enough skill to do so. It's up to the writer and the general public to realize that certain pairings are far to difficult to be attempted unless your a master. And they do exist.

Oh no, I agree with you, any paring can be made to work with enough work, development, and skill. However, most people, given that they write for fun and their own entertainment, don't put that much work into it. There's also the fact that most stories don't allow for enough passage of time for the sheer amount of character development necessary to make certain personality changes believable.

MrRigger

[Farmer_10]

What was the pairing you refused to mention in your thread-starting post?

[Arganaut]

Gman... I'll give you that. There are some authors out there who can probably take crap and turn it into gold, if only they put a greater amount of effort into it than the average fans of a pairing. My problem is just that: when you have to twist and turn and put so many manhours into a pairing in order to make it even slightly plausible, and perhaps even failing that, then perhaps there's something wrong with the ship and the shippers.

But that's just my opinion

Anyway, Farmer, the pairing I initially refused to mention until I got some sleep was the whole Vegeta Bulma relationship that developed in Dragonball Z, a head scratching moment for me if there ever was one, and a pretty disappointing one as time went on. Bothering to debate or create pairings in Dragonball Z is pretty well equivalent to trying to sculpt the statue of David with a stick of dynamite, there's little point to it normally.

The reason I begrudge this one, not just for starting the trend of doing this for practically every other popular anime/manga since then, is because it took out a good villain for the story. Vegeta stood as an excellent foil towards the main character, was brutal as could be when he needed/wanted to be, and was also rather sadistic. Then... his turn to the good side just seemed to be thrown right at us. Even in the Namekian arc where he was working with the good guys, it didn't seem like he was becoming a good guy, but rather that he was just doing it for his own gain. I felt like, later on, the lack of Vegeta as a main villain created.... a sort of empty space in the series. There wasn't a foil for Goku quite like Vegeta until Majin!Vegeta, which was an excellent turn while it lasted.

[gman391]

Alright fair enough you have an opinion and it's a valid one. I admit I by default skip most pairings of that nature. Mostly for reasons I've already mentioned. I'm just saying that we can't condemn all of it. And just because the ship in itself is difficult to do believably doesn't make it a bad ship just a challenging one. To stretch a simile

Some ships like NaruHina (well maybe not so much anymore),IchiHime/IchiRukia ect. Are like big cruise ships. Short of being catastrophically stupid it's relatively hard to sink it and make people think it's unbelievable

Other ships such as Naruto/Konan, Uliquerra/Orihime, Harry/Voldemort (I've seen it and it still hurts me inside) Are kind of like....well sailing a yacht into a storm/typhoon. You can do it and with some skill and a lot of luck you'll come out the other side....but you really shouldn't have sailed that yacht. Because odds are it will sink.

They're both ships and both valid but one is a challenge.


Yes the Vegata/Bulma ship came out of nowhere. And yes Akira Toriyama didn't set it up well. Although I believe that he's on record as admitting that he's not very good with romances.

Regardless you can't blame one example for all the bad pairings written. They would have latched on to something else. And really with some of the pairing wars from earlier I'm not sure if this helped or hurt the cause.

Vegeta actually never really interested me. But then outside of the fight scenes Dragonball never really interested me. Well no that's not fair Dragonball Z and GT didn't interest me. Although I do watch Team Four Star's stuff.

But yes he was somewhat derailed. But on the other hand how much of that was executive meddling? I don't know but I'm reserving judgement until I do know.

[Chuckg]

I have to admit gman has a point.

As Exhibit A: Dyce, on FF.net, has written at least one fic that made Hermione/Snape believable -- "Survivors". Had a one-shot sequel, "A Good Day". Its AU now, because the fic was published shortly after HBP was released but before before Deathly Hallows came out, so its entirely non-canon-compliant as regards how the War ended.

It took every ounce of the man's not inconsiderable skill to do it, however.

(Another fic of his with the same pairing, 'Accountable', is also an enjoyable read but notably less believable.)

PS -- my usual opinion of the Hermione/Snape 'ship is that its the Trope Codifier for crack shipping. So, take the above as a sign that the dude really, really put his back into it.

Edit: And technically we're off-topic, as the Snape in those fics was not a villain. But still.

[Phht]

Kim/Shego. One's the globe-trotting "average" high schooler that saves the world (and is a cheerleader), the other is a plasma-wielding thief wanted in 11-12 countries (also, Deadpan Snarker, Dark Action Girl, Dangerously Genre Savvy, The Only One Who Can Kill You (regarding Kim), Draco in Leather Pants, The Dragon, and even more tropes).

Of course, this one's got a bit more basis in canon than some of the other pairings mentioned in this thread.

Foe Yay: Kim and Shego... Interesting subtext or reading far too much into a relationship based on close combat and snark?

Most of the stories with the pairing end up with Shego going good to be with Kim but, to be fair, Kim going evil doesn't really work except with good writers because of how nice and helpful she is (unless you count that one scene in So the Drama...). No, seriously. She goes around the world to help save things from parades to nearly collapsing dams to floods. And she does it for free. Nearly daily.

[serbii]

Oooh wall of text. Unfortunately I'm not in most of those fandoms.

Actually I was trawling through my computer last night and found an old Bulma x Vegeta fic I loved back in the day. I read some of it again.
I saved this fic maybe 9 years ago and unlike a bunch of other stuff from when you're 14, it still seems good.
I tell you to all go read An Alternate Love is you want to see a BV fic actually done well. They're both still very messed up people at the end of it and it's set in the original timeline (no Trunks warning) so he's still planning to kill them all when he beats Goku. It's one of the best romance fics I've ever read. I know that's not a particularly high bar, but still...

If you want to see it done hilariously then Bulma Briefs' Diary for blatant Bridget Jones-ness.

Trunks was executive meddling, they told him to put in a bishie XD

Ahh DBZ, the series that got me into fanfiction.
Actually anyone got any good fics for it?

[DIT_grue]

Good DragonBall fics? Try Kizmet and Dragoness Eclectic. Both authors have created their own deep sequences/universes. There might be one or two other good stories that I've read, but these are the ones that I reread occasionally.

[Arganaut]

... I'm almost as disturbed as I am impressed that he managed to write out the Hermione/Snape story in a manner that was... aside from the obvious age difference that I could never quite shake, at least somewhat believable. Though, I'd give you at least some credit. Snape is close enough to being a villain, an anti-hero, for it to count.

I really don't watch Kimpossible, but if you were to ask me, I'd find the fact that they're actually doing this to a Disney Cartoon... then again we all argue, write about and discuss what are, in all honesty, Japanese cartoons for free, so that doesn't leave me room to talk.

As for the DBZ fanfics... all interesting, might check 'em out another time.

[Tempest Kitsune]

Wow, RTD in just 7 posts. I think that's a new record.

But to get back on track, I agree with G-man in that there are some ships that can be done well if you're talented enough, even if they're not all that believable. Then there are those garbage-scows that no sane person should even wish to pilot into a raging maelstrom. Of course, as watching various shipping wars (from a distance) has taught me, most of the really die-hard shippers don't have too much in the way of sanity when it comes to their chosen ship, no matter how distasteful it may be to other people.

[Chuckg]

... I'm almost as disturbed as I am impressed that he managed to write out the Hermione/Snape story in a manner that was... aside from the obvious age difference that I could never quite shake, at least somewhat believable. Though, I'd give you at least some credit. Snape is close enough to being a villain, an anti-hero, for it to count.

As Dyce deliberately hung a lampshade on in-fic a similar age difference exists in Jane Eyre, and that was no bar to its being one of the most classic romance novels of all time. :P

He really pulled no punches selling it, did he.

[Arganaut]

Wow, RTD in just 7 posts. I think that's a new record.

But to get back on track, I agree with G-man in that there are some ships that can be done well if you're talented enough, even if they're not all that believable. Then there are those garbage-scows that no sane person should even wish to pilot into a raging maelstrom. Of course, as watching various shipping wars (from a distance) has taught me, most of the really die-hard shippers don't have too much in the way of sanity when it comes to their chosen ship, no matter how distasteful it may be to other people.

*CoughPokeshipperWarsCough* ... Oh... those were dark times....

And while I've heard of Jane Eyre, I've never read it myself.

[doc.exe]

Well, I kind of agree with both gman and Arganaut. On one hand, I have seen first hand how a completely crack pairing can be done in a feasible way if the author is skillful enough and puts real effort in the set up. But on the other hand, if the aumont of character development and/or alterations to the canon timeline just for the pairing to be feasible are too much... well, then maybe the pairing itself is not worth it after all.

I'm not a fan of Bleach or Harry Potter, but bringing another fandom that is common in this forum, I have to say that with the sole exception of Pain/Konan (which could work as the villians "unholy" matrimony type of relationship that MrRigger pointed out), I actually tend to roll my eyes everytime I see a fanfic pairing an Akatsuki member with any female character... and don't make me go with Orochimaru being paired with anything alive.

In any case, I personally like the concept of a villian realizing his mistakes and striving for redemption. I just think The Atoner type of character makes for an excellent antihero. Indeed, two of my favorite shonen characters of all time started as villians before defecting to the good side (Phoenix Ikki from Saint Seiya/Knights of the Zodiac, Piccolo from DBZ).

Nevertheless, in my opinion, if you are going to change the moral alignment of a character, you better focus on that concept by itself rather than trying to do it for the sake of a pairing (not to mention there are certain characters that are just more enjoyable as villians, like The Joker). Going with the example that Arganaut pointed out, Zuko's transformation from villain to antihero didn't have anything to do with Katara at all (and just for the record, until the very end of Book 2, I never really got what all the craze for Zutara was about... and even then, I still favored Kataang over any other possible combination :).

As to the whole Vegeta/Bulma pairing, well, I have to say that I disagree completely there with Arganaut's opinion. Before I expose my points, I should clarify that the version of DBZ broadcasted in my country had very little alterations to the original one, unlike what happened with the version broadcasted on other countries. I mention this because of the possibility of changed dialogues which could have altered the personality or background of the characters.

That being clarified, I have to state this: While the pairing came out of nowhere, and Vegeta's wife and kid was what ultimately turned him into a good guy, that didn't happen inmediately after he and Bulma hooked up.

Indeed, Vegeta remained a bad guy grudginly working with the heroes for most of the remaining of DBZ. This was the man that was never interested on saving the Earth, who only cared for proving that he was the best. He allowed Cell to reach perfection in order to have a decent opponent. He only saved Goku at times because he considered himself the only one allowed to defeat him. Not to mention he didn't bat an eyelash when Dr. Gero/Android #20 attacked Bulma's ship, almost killing her and Baby Trunks. And when Mirai Trunks called him out on that, Vegeta scolded him for thinking he would care if his wife and kid died.

Heck! Not even Mirai Bulma knew Vegeta had any good inside him, she always lied to his son about that (which of course, makes you wonder how in the hell that conception happened in the first place and why she terminately falled for him, but I suppose that is why there is so much fanfiction about them).

It can be said Vegeta only turned into a real antihero till the moment he sacrificed himself in an attempt to defeat Manji Buu. And even then, Piccolo reminded him that he was still going to be send to hell for all the people he killed.

And I found he was still an excellent foil for Goku, being arrogant, cynical, rude and quick tempered, as opposed to Goku's easy going, naive and childish nature.

[Arganaut]

Okay, firstly: what does RTD mean? I've been trying to figure it out and I haven't been able to find what I think would be an appropriate meaning on the internet.

Secondly: alright doc, these are all excellent points, and on many of them I'd agree with you: indeed Vegeta was a delightful bastard throughout even the Cell Saga, and remained as an excellent contrasting point to Goku even when his moral alignment officially became good. I'm just saying, as my opinion, that I still liked him better as an active villain, mostly because he did a pretty good job of being a villain when he was going on as one, and I felt it was a shame to let that go.

[Farmer_10]

I can see what you mean. I remember Vegeta when he was killing his way through Freezas goons trying to gather the Dragonballs for himself. You weren't too sure what would happen when he finally met up with the good guys. Would he kill them for revenge? Ignore them as beneath him? He added an extra layer of tension to the Namek Saga. Now that I think about it those were some of the best parts of the whole thing. I mean Gohan and Krillin were pretty screwed at the time. Their powers were probably equivalent to about 2 Radditz at that point and he was a chump in the Freeza Corps. They could take a few goons, maybe, but the minute they got the attention of Freeza or his elites it would be the fight against Vegeta all over again. With no Goku to bail their asses out of the fire this time.

[doc.exe]

Well, you have a point there that Vegeta stoping being an active threat was a lose of one of the show's major sources of conflict and tension. But I tend to believe the Cell saga had enough of that with both the androids and Cell, not to mention Goku's disease. And Majin Buu was enough of a threat by himself.

Mmm... It probably can be argued that one of the series problems in the later parts was that the major villians were so freaking powerful/dangerous that they tended to overshadow everything else, not leaving real room for any lose cannon running out there.

[Arganaut]

That's probably one of the big problems: the villains just kept on getting more and more powerful because they had to be able to outshine the previous villain in power/be able to surpass the hero.

Really, when your villains become strong enough to destroy planets, that's when it gets a little overblown.

[Tempest Kitsune]

Okay, firstly: what does RTD mean? I've been trying to figure it out and I haven't been able to find what I think would be an appropriate meaning on the internet.

"Rapid Topic Drift", where a thread goes massively off-topic extremely quickly.

[Zankaru Zelladonii]

I watched the DBZ anime a few years back, so I may be making a mistake, but couldnt goku already destroy the earth if his kamehameha (spelling?) hit it, even back when vegeta was the bad guy? I remember hearing that somewhere.

[doc.exe]

Yes, but it's important to remember that DBZ was the second part of Dragon Ball. Back in the first series the power levels were exaggerate but not on that extreme (a Kamehameha was capable of blowing up a mountain or the Moon at maximum power, but initially only Roshi was capable of doing that. Goku required years of training before managing similar feats).

In any case, I find it curious how in DBZ the villians' power level tended to increase exponentially, yet Goku became so powerful anyway that Toriyama had to always find an excuse to keep him out of the plot for most of the battles in order to keep tension.