Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » July 28th, 2010, 1:19 pm

I imagine this thread will get a bit more of a workout when Embers updates on Friday, but since it was brought up in another thread, I thought I'd post this now. That said, normal ground rules apply.

Keep discussions civil, we don't want this turning into a war. Intelligent discussion is encouraged, mindless flaming is not. I don't think this will be much of a problem, but given the nature of the fic, I feel it had to be reiterated.

Everybody (including myself) needs to acknowledge that this a divisive story, and that while many people feel it's great, just as many feel it's not. Please note that sometimes we should just agree to disagree and separate to our respective corners.

Please note that there will likely be spoilers for recent and new chapters in this discussion thread, so keep that in mind if you aren't current on the story. I put a spoiler tag in the thread title for that reason.

And of course, the normal rules of the forum. We don't want this being locked.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5398503/1/Embers

MrRigger
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Magnificate » July 28th, 2010, 1:22 pm

Link for those who didn't read the story?
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » July 28th, 2010, 1:23 pm

There you go Magnificate. Didn't even think about it, but now there is a link in the first post of the thread.

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EDIT: And now it actually goes to the first chapter.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Kirai » July 28th, 2010, 2:23 pm

*cracks fingers* ranting time! Though I'll try to keep it short and civil.

First Katara I suppose. Now she isn't my favorite character, I think that would be Sokka, but I like her well enough. Hell I like everybody in avatar. Maybe not Zaho, he's a bit too mustache twirly and short sighted, but whatever.

I could take her being evil, no problems there. But what I can't take is somebody making me want to drag her behind a shed and put her out of her own and everybody elses misery, especially if she's supposed to be at least nominally on the good side. Vatara has managed to do just that. I really just want to grab Katara, put her down and be done with it because she is just that stupid, devisive and quite frankly dangerous.

I may have to say that this is shortly after Zuku captured her. Yeah, if somebody makes me have those feelings for the good guys of the story. Or at least the not bad guys... I'll stop reading.

Then there's how she deals with cultures. Sure a lot of research went into how they were in the real world. But then comes a gem like she doesn't include the sun warriors because they are too wishy washy and she doesn't want to do the real aztect.

What the blood sacrifice the sun warriors practice in the series isn't bloody enough for you because their gods didn't eat the offering? Am I the only one who realizes that Zuko and Aang would have ended up as a stain on the ground if the dragons hadn't found them worthy?

Could it be that a culture that has direct access to the beings they worship might be different than a culture that doesn't?

What would you do if the guy you send to get burned to ash comes back burning you to ash? Would you continue the practice or would you adapt it to something that doesn't make you the victim of your victim?

Same with the water tribes. She acts as if the live on the south pole is something very dangerous and difficult. Instead we are shown the kids pretty much having fun and a good time. Why might that be? If live is usually so difficult in these parts?

Hmm, maybe... because you can take a large chunk of the danger of that place away if you can heat up water with your thoughts, make instant buildings and generally control the entire enviornment you live in?

She makes the mistake of tranlating real life cultures one to one into the setting, ignoring the changes bending and the supernatural would bring to such cultures.

*pant pant* nearly done with the vitriol.

On to the dragon born, healing, waterbending, charismatic leader Zuko.

The healing I have no problem with, as previously mentioned. Hell I wouldn't have a problem with Zuko benind all other elements through understanding that everything is connected and there's energy in everything bla blub. Maybe even together. And it looked as if that was kinda the route she would be taking with him in the beginning. Bending hot water and all that.

But why did he need to also waterbend? Wasn't he awesome enough? (I don't remember reading the authors notes on that decision, but more on that later) Meh, whatever, just seems unnecesary to me.

As does the dragon thing. Why? Why does the fire nation need to be descendant form dragons? And why are the other nations not? Was that really necesarry? Did they really need that cool gimick? Because I can't think of a reason that dragons need to be anywhere in Zuko's linage. And no. It's happened in a lot of mythology isn't a valid reason. It's an excuse.

Also let me clarify what I mean with Zuko isn't wrong.

It's not that he makes mistakes, he's great at that. But morally? Has he ever made a morally wrong decision? A decision where he didn't come out as the moral victor? I can't remember one.

In contrast I can barely remember one thing were the avatar or his friends come out morally as clean as Zuko.

And one last thing.

If I need author notes to apprechiate a story... I think there's something a little bit wrong with it. At least when I need them under every chapter. Once or twice, to explain a plot point... ok yeah sure. Every chapter? Do you really need to justify every chapter?

(Hyperbole might apply to the rant, since it's been a while since I read Embers. I like the first part, before they reached Ba Sing Sei, from there I liked it less and less.)

It's not a bad story. It's superbly written and a lot of thought went into it. Certainly more than goes into my stories. But it's doing things with the characters and the world I simply don't like. So I stopped reading.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » July 28th, 2010, 3:56 pm

I understand your points, and even agree with some of them. You don't like what the story did to the characters, and that's fine. I don't like some of it either. But, let me try and clear up some of your complaints, or at least explain how I see them.
First Katara I suppose. Now she isn't my favorite character, I think that would be Sokka, but I like her well enough. Hell I like everybody in avatar. Maybe not Zaho, he's a bit too mustache twirly and short sighted, but whatever.

I could take her being evil, no problems there. But what I can't take is somebody making me want to drag her behind a shed and put her out of her own and everybody elses misery, especially if she's supposed to be at least nominally on the good side. Vatara has managed to do just that. I really just want to grab Katara, put her down and be done with it because she is just that stupid, devisive and quite frankly dangerous.

I may have to say that this is shortly after Zuku captured her. Yeah, if somebody makes me have those feelings for the good guys of the story. Or at least the not bad guys... I'll stop reading.
There isn't much I can do about you not liking Katara's character, so I won't try. To be honest, Katara is one of my big annoyances as well. That said, Katara's attitude is explained (not justified, but explained) by the death of her mother. It messed her up big time, mentally. She never got the help needed to get her past her mother's death, and that is a problem. It translated into a powerful hatred for the Fire Nation, and as said in canon, she sees Zuko as the face of the Fire Nation, the face of the person who killed her mother.
Could it be that a culture that has direct access to the beings they worship might be different than a culture that doesn't?
I believe that the reasons was that see couldn't see any way anthropologically that the Aztec based culture could evolve into the Asian based culture that the Fire Nation is now. And it's not that they were without Dragons. The Fire Nation was at the Asian based culture it is now during Roku's time, at which point Dragons were still in the open. Remember, It wasn't until Iroh was a grown man that the Dragons were "extinct", so Dragons were involved in the culture until only very recently (recent in a historical sense).
Same with the water tribes. She acts as if the live on the south pole is something very dangerous and difficult. Instead we are shown the kids pretty much having fun and a good time. Why might that be? If live is usually so difficult in these parts?
The South Pole was dangerous. I agree, likely not as dangerous as it would have been without waterbenders, but from the time Hama was captured to the time Katara was born, the Southern Water Tribe didn't have waterbenders, so it was definitely dangerous. The kids were having fun and a good time because they're kids. Even if they have responsibilities, kids generally want to have fun. Also remember that the first time we see Katara and Sokka, they're fishing for dinner. It's only after Aang pops up that they really start playing around, largely because Aang's attitude towards fun is considered infectious at best. It can also be said that the Southern Water Tribe is proud, and doesn't want to present the idea of weakness to a visitor, as they don't want to be pitied.
But why did he need to also waterbend? Wasn't he awesome enough? (I don't remember reading the authors notes on that decision, but more on that later) Meh, whatever, just seems unnecesary to me.
Zuko's waterbending wasn't given to him to make him awesome (at least story wise, I can't speak as to the author's motivation), it was the spirit's messing with him further. Zuko's status as a yaoren was part of Yue's plot that Zuko wants nothing with. Yaoren are supposed to help the Avatar understand the relationships between the cultures, and generally be the Avatar's companions who can relate to the Avatar in being outcasts who don't belong to any one culture. Zuko, however, can't stand to be around Aang, something the spirits didn't take into account when they forced waterbending onto Zuko. The waterbending isn't there to make Zuko more awesome, it's there as part of a Xanatos Gambit that is part of the Thirty Xanatos Pileup that makes up the plot.
As does the dragon thing. Why? Why does the fire nation need to be descendant form dragons? And why are the other nations not? Was that really necesarry? Did they really need that cool gimick? Because I can't think of a reason that dragons need to be anywhere in Zuko's linage. And no. It's happened in a lot of mythology isn't a valid reason. It's an excuse.
Being descended from Dragons is there to put the Fire Nation apart. It's one of the major reasons why the other nations see the Fire Nation as inhuman monsters, because in a sense, they are. Being descended from Dragons also serves as a counterpoint to the Water Tribes. Firebenders exist because the source of Firebending mated with humans, whereas Waterbenders exist because the were blessed by the Moon Spirit.
It's not that he makes mistakes, he's great at that. But morally? Has he ever made a morally wrong decision? A decision where he didn't come out as the moral victor? I can't remember one.

In contrast I can barely remember one thing were the avatar or his friends come out morally as clean as Zuko.
I see Embers as a Grey and Gray Morality story, and a lot of Zuko's decisions are horrible if you look at them right. He attacked and kidnapped Katara, and held her against her will for a time. He had his reasons and was protecting his own interests, but he did hold a fourteen year old girl against her will. He also let Azula live, and if you didn't get that far, Azula is very much a Complete Monster in Embers, even more so than in canon, as Embers allows for Mind Rape. Azula can manipulate a person's inner fire to drive a person insane. It's scarier than I'm describing. So Zuko let's Azula live, and leaves the whole of Ba Sing Se to Azula's tender mercies. And Azula has a bit of head trauma, so she's even more of a Complete Monster than usual. There's also the recent decision to send Aang a mostly harmless spirit which has been hinted to have much worse consequences than Zuko may have expected. Of course, that might end up okay, the resolution hasn't been shown. He also destroyed Katara's world view, and turned the Southern Water Tribe against her. Only the fact that Hakoda is her father and the chief kept her from being "tossed off an ice flow". Zuko did feel bad enough about that situation to send her a letter of apology with papers that allow her a legal pursuit of vengence against her mother's killer, knowing that doing so would likely split her up from the Avatar and turn Aang against her. So no, Zuko's not completely morally straight. He's not evil, and he's not done anything terrible by the standards of a Fire Nation great name, but by the standards of the average reader, Zuko isn't the nicest guy around.
If I need author notes to apprechiate a story... I think there's something a little bit wrong with it. At least when I need them under every chapter. Once or twice, to explain a plot point... ok yeah sure. Every chapter? Do you really need to justify every chapter?
I see the author's note as being there to further explain certain decisions that may be clear to a more observant or intelligent reader, but may be muddled for your average ff.net peruser.

I don't expect this to change your mind on the fic, but I felt I needed to put my two cents in.

MrRigger
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Magnificate » July 28th, 2010, 4:35 pm

First chapter, first impression, above average. Zuko and Iroh as protagonists, OK, that could be cool, especially if Iroh gets enough screentime. Dragons, mostly meh. Fire-Healing, intriguing. I’ll have to wait to see more, but as long as there are differences between Water-Healing and Fire-Healing it should be interesting. On the downside, I don’t like the way the author handled those mini-flashbacks, but that’s just my personal pet peeve.

(BTW, I won’t actually read your other comments until I reach at least chapter 10 and decide whether or not to continue reading the fic.)
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » July 28th, 2010, 4:41 pm

That's a good idea Magnificate, I'm pretty bad about actually spoiler boxing in a thread that has spoilers in the thread title.

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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » July 31st, 2010, 1:41 pm

Bah, double post, but I want to get this up here. Here's my thoughts on the chapter.

The first section, focusing on Jee's thoughts, I don't have much to talk about. Seems pretty straightforward, though the foreshadowing about seeing Zuko do some firebending flight was interesting. If Zuko doesn't fly, Azula nearly has to, simply to satisfy the part where Teruko talks about dragon children not being able to fly and Jee thinks about only extremely powerful firebenders being able to accomplish it, speaking about Jeong Jeong.

Sergent Kyo and Donghai gave a few good hints as to what Zuko's plan is, though I wonder how many ships are going to be "borrowed" and how many are going to be burned. I'm pretty sure a lot more are going to be stolen than Donghai or anybody but Zuko and the other core planners expect. I don't know if even the big names like Jee know just how many people Zuko is planning on moving. From a logistics standpoint, I think nearly all of the ships Kyo, Sadao, and Donghai were looking at are going to be taken, simply because of the need of it. I think very few of them are going to be burned, as Firebenders, the ones who would be coming after the escapees, can put the fires out. Whether or not that means they could do it before the ships are burned to ruination remanins to be seen, but I do think it will be interesting to see Azula screaming at the army/navy to go after them, only to be told that they don't have any ships left to pursue them.

Teruko and Zuko meeting with Yakume and Lu-shan was a good scene. Yakume standing up for Lu-shan and the rest of the Earth Kingdom Guard was good to see, and it surprised Lu-shan. Might puts a bit of a kink into Zuko's plans, but it's good to see all the same. Of course, there might not be a kink depending on what Yakume decides based on what he finds out in the next scene, which leads me to...

Yakume and Lu-shan conversing on just what is going on in the water was nice. It showed a bit more into the Earth Kingdom mindset when Lu-shan said, "Either you lay soldiers to rest, or you don't." It seems to me that there are very little contingencies in the Earth Kingdom military, and that everything is fairly straightforward. This is supported by Yakume saying that, "You have your military doctrine, and you hold to it. Ours... changes. Depending on the commander, on the troops - on many things." It also explains why General Gang went after Zuko and Iroh so hard despite being under truce. Other than an Earth Kingdom truce being something that ends a war (and obviously, the war isn't over, so how could it be a truce), the Earth Kingdom Army always goes after people with new firebending techniques, and they absolutely couldn't pass up a chance at someone like General Iroh, so it makes complete sense, from an Earth Kingdom standpoint, that they would attack Suzuran at the Water Tribe camp. I would like to see some of the more unscrupulous commanders that keep being mentioned, rather than merely hearing about them all the time. Though it is good to see that there are Fire Nation officers that aren't like that. I do have to wonder though, just how many times has Yakume given the "when we took your territory, you became my responsibility" speech.

I also find it interesting that the Fire Nation, at least Yakume, knows that the Earth Kingdom's spirit breaking concept is deal/contract breaking, when such concepts for the other nations are not as well known. Nearly no one outside of the Fire Nation knows of what breaking loyalty means (only the Dai Li that we've seen, and them only because of their mind screw tactics), and even the Water Tribe warriors were a bit confused by breaking the bonds of family. I expect that the only place breaking family bonds can kill you would be even at all well known is the Northern Water Tribe. Kanna probably knows, as it's my personal belief that she went through the process and survived when she left the Northern Water Tribe for the Southern to get away from her family arranged marriage. The Foggy Swamp Tribe seems to be small enough that breaking family bonds wouldn't be likely, but the Northern Water Tribe is shown to have politics, so breaking family bonds would be possible.

It was good to see that Yakume isn't taking advantage of the Earth Kingdom's nature to hold to deals, though. And I did like the mirror of Zuko complaining about the other nations knowing nothing of loyalty and Lu-shan accusing the Fire Nation of not being able to hold to deals. And Yakume getting fish slapped with the idea that Zuko isn't dead and is a fire healer was just funny to me. The comment about thinking during a fight being dangerous also struck me as intriguing. It's true, I've personally trained and sparred enough to know that stopping to think in a fight only leads to you getting punched in the face, but it may also be why dragon children are so dangerous in a fight. If you get them raging, they can't think, and react only by instinct, and are damn good at it. I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me.

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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » July 31st, 2010, 1:43 pm

The review was too long, so I had to split it up. Here's the rest.

Azula's still crazy, of course, but now we get to see that she's stable and insane, rather than unstable like she's been for the past few appearances. Azula even acknowledges it, which was interesting to see her acknowledge any kind of weakness at all. And Azula knows of Ty Lee's Air Nomad ancestry, which is definitely interesting. Though she believes airbending is gone completely, which means she likely doesn't know anything about the renegades/temple guardians/whatever you want to call them on Byakko's mountain. So she's likely in for a nasty surprise. The lecture she gave Ty Lee on trusting Amaya was intriguing, as it brought up a good point. Ty Lee trusted Amaya because she could read Amaya's aura and decided she could trust her. So how can she read auras and decide that, but fail to see Azula is a Complete Monster? TK brought that up, and the only reason I can see is that people are very good at ignoring things they don't want to know, and that includes Ty Lee ignoring Azula's true nature. And Azula trying to get inside Zuko's head, thinking she's succeeded and the readers knowing she's completely wrong, is great. I can't wait to see her realize that she was wrong, because Evil Cannot Comprehend Good.

Zuko reuniting with Houjin was cool, because Zuko actually had something good happen for him, rather than turning a bad situation to a good one, as per usual for him. I did like Teruko trying to be funny and light-hearted around the two girls who are traumatized and completely uncomprehending as to how Teruko could possibly make jokes and the whole situation just ending up awkward as hell. Teruko sticking up for Zuko and Zuko not getting it was also a bit of foreshadowing. Zuko's been loyal before, even if he took back that loyalty, but the only person who has *given* Zuko loyalty is Jee, apart from Iroh, and that's family, so Zuko doesn't see it counting. Now Teruko is sticking up for Zuko, giving him loyalty, and telling Zuko to learn to live with it, tells me that it's going to be happening more in the future. Especially with the comment at the end of the chapter.

Zuko getting blindsided by the discovery of Earth Healing was nice, as well as his explanation of Wan Shi Tong. It's an example of the Blue and Orange Morality found in dealing with spirits, as the others were trying to ascribe human morals to a decidedly inhuman creature, and why the world needs the Avatar. Normal people just can't comprehend spirits, only people trained in dealing with them, like Fire Sages, Dai Li, exceptionally strong willed benders/people, or yaoren. Also it's Zuko's first hint that there's something going on in his head. I can't wait for that confrontation with Iroh, where Zuko finds out that Iroh knew, and didn't tell him. Same thing with Teruko's slip about Zuko being a Dragon child.

I do think the Western Elders showing up for their tithe a week after a hurricane was just a bit of horribleness on their parts, but I can't shake the thought that that insult was one of the Xanatos Gambits in the Thirty Xanatos Pileup that is the main plot of this story. There had to be some kind of manipulation going on. Just don't know who.

Houjin putting the other Guards in their place by telling them that he is Fire Nation was great, I don't care who you are.

Now we come to the big part of the chapter, Zuko and Kuei meeting each other for the time as equals. Even if Zuko had to force Kuei to realize that they were, in fact, equals. It definitely gave Kuei and the refugees hope to hear that Aang was alive, and the verbal smackdown Zuko laid on Kuei (who really needs some court etiquette lessons) was great. And we finally get true verbal confirmation of Zuko's plans, rather than the inferred plan we've been working with for the past dozen chapters. He's going to bring back the airbenders, if not the Air Nomads. Considering the massive move that Zuko's plan entails, even the Gang's nonexistent information gathering is going to hear of it, I think we can assume fairly safely that Aang is going to hear of Zuko's plan. What we don't know is how he's going to react. I think that Aang's going to be over the moon about bringing airbending back. At least, until he realizes that bringing back airbending doesn't mean bringing the Air Nomads back. I'm not sure Aang has the mental capacity to realize that bringing back one doesn't mean bringing back the other.

I do have to admit that I was surprised by Zuko giving his people the option of giving their loyalty to Kuei, and I like that. Not often something surprises me like that. Plus it gives us one of the funniest lines in the story. "...He really, really needs some court lessons, Zuko thought, watching Kuei gape. He looks like I slapped him with an octopus." I don't think anyone's ever been described as being hit with an octopus, but damn if it isn't a funny image.

It also appears Kuei knows the story of Monk Xiangchen. Hopefully we'll get to hear that in the next chapter or two. I only see a couple of options about who could tell it, Kuei, Zuko or Iroh after they read the scrolls Kuei gives them, Langxue because he was there, or if Avatar Yangchen possesses Aang again. Maybe the renegades on Byakko's mountain, but I don't think we're going to be there anytime soon, or Shidan, but I don't think he really knows the story, it's just a vague possibility.

"Hail! Prince Zuko!" About time he got a tangible reward for all the work he put in.

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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » August 19th, 2010, 11:10 am

New Chapter is up. And can I just say, that fight was freaking awesome. Absolutely awesome.

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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby SLAMU » August 19th, 2010, 4:24 pm

Kuei watching from a distance with :scared: all over his face, that was nice. And then noticing that nobody knew what exactly the Avatar had planned, leading to a sort of "Oh, crap" moment. The Earth King's presumption concerning nobility is a nice touch, I think.

Fight was awesome, with Azula being deliciously Toxic psycho, and having apparently either infected or warped Ty Lee. Then there's Ty Lee's reaction to Zuko being alive on top of Azula's and that was like getting pizza topped in doughnuts. :yaeh_am_not_durnk:

Kinda wish we saw more of the gaang, but it was more of a Zuko chapter anyway, so no worries there. I suppose my only real complaint would be "but where's the next chapter?" I do not either have entitlement issues.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » August 19th, 2010, 8:40 pm

My favorite part?

Azula getting tit-punched, and her reaction to having to face dirty fighting on a personal level.
"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby WarriorDrgnMage » August 20th, 2010, 12:28 am

Crowning Moment of Funny: ...was Agent Bon banging his head against the wall?
"We get out of the I'm going to teach you about displacement."

That chapter was awesome! So Zuko is Kuzon after all. I'm still confused about Ty Lee's Airbender kin aren't the from Byyako...?
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Tarnished Blade » September 10th, 2010, 1:05 pm

Chapter 37 is up.

Zuko remembers Kuzon.

Remember the adage: Old age and treachery trump youth and skill.

Que the experience upgrade for Zuko. :yuush:

I wonder if he has enough dragon's blood in him to get all scaly, which would of course mean that Azula could too. Hell she already might be able to. Crap.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby SLAMU » September 11th, 2010, 3:18 am

Why, are you concerned that he might Hulk Out on someone or something?


Actually, that doesn't sound half bad. Let's watch and see if that happens.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Tarnished Blade » September 11th, 2010, 4:46 am

Actually . . . no. I'm not worried that Zuko would "Hulk Out" . . .
Spoiler: show
What was once a blustering town square had been reduced to a smoldering, bloody ruin.

Semi evenly space gashes decorated the more substantial buildings. Carts and booths alike where smashed and torn asunder.

But the bodies were the worst.

The lucky ones laid whole limbs bent in final, unnatural angles. The others . . .

A pair of legs dressed in silk paints with out a chest-
-across the square listed the body of a kimono rhino, 5 deep gouges on its broad shoulders behind the bloody mess where the head had once been-
-an elderly woman, steel hair atop a face twisted in agony even death, her good arm limply resting where her second had once been-
-an ostrich horse, barely alive, weakly driving itself in a small circle on the ground with its one remaining leg.

In the middle of this stood a single survivor. Nude, hair unbound and flying wildly in the wind she turned towards Aang.

"Hello, Avatar Aang."

And Azula smiled, and wiped a single finger across her lips. She paused for a moment before sucking off the crimson fluid.

"I hear your looking for a dragon . . ."
Considering that Shidan thinks Sozin's dragon is still around, and she certainly would never side with Zuko let alone Aang . . .

Most likely she would approach Aang herself and try to kill him or teach Azula. Perhaps she has been teaching her all along?
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby DIT_grue » September 11th, 2010, 9:16 am

From what we've been shown so far, it doesn't work that way. Even the dragons themselves can't simply pop back and forth between forms, and I'm fairly confident their descendants don't get any 'shapeshift powerz' at all.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby SLAMU » September 11th, 2010, 5:43 pm

Oh, what a nasty idea you have there. I like it, although I think I prefer the idea that Azula really is that damn good, not that she's been getting lessons from the dragons. Still, her finding some remaining (dark) dragons and learning from them, adding her skills as a prodegy to the feircesome skill of a bender trained by an origional master would make her an absolute terror to fight, rather than simply scary. Not that I see that actually happening though, as she'd likely kill it and bring its head to daddy, gaining the title of Dragon for herself.

Hmm...so the Air Nomads are still around, genetically at least. Although keeping them captive (can't leave the Fire Nation, I think it was) must make them stir crazy as all get out. Thoughts of Aang's reaction to meeting the reletives?
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Thozmp » September 11th, 2010, 5:52 pm

Hmm...so the Air Nomads are still around, genetically at least. Although keeping them captive (can't leave the Fire Nation, I think it was) must make them stir crazy as all get out. Thoughts of Aang's reaction to meeting the reletives?
Better still, thoughts of Aang's reaction to what said relatives do?
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » September 11th, 2010, 6:02 pm

Methinks that Aang is going to have a series of highly unpleasent wakeup calls. That shaman was probably the first. And now I REALLY want to know how the Air Nomads accomplish their "harmonious accord", what sick bastard thought it up in the first place, and what Aang's reaction to finding out that his OWN PEOPLE were essentially brainwashing and twisting people is gonna be. Because you can bet that Zuko's not gonna pull any punches with the info he's gotten from his Kuzon memories.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » September 12th, 2010, 12:54 pm

Aang's already started his process of letting go the Idiot Ball he's been clutching so tightly here lately, by realizing something huge in this chapter. Once Aang realized that parents are like teachers, he got the oh crap look on his face as he realized why Zuko is so screwed up, and Aang doesn't even think Zuko is in the wrong. He doesn't agree with what Zuko's doing (or likely wouldn't if he knew what was really going on), but Aang is finally starting to understand why Zuko didn't trust him back in "The Blue Spirit" or when they met up again in Ba Sing Se or at the Water Tribe camp. Aang said it himself, "If I had been betrayed by Gyatso, I don't think I would ever be able to trust anybody."

Which is some nasty bit of foreshadowing, when you look at the comment about what the Air Elders were planning on doing with Aang. It's not being betrayed by Gyatso, but I doubt Aang is going to be happy about anything when he finds out their plans, whatever they may be.

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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby rabe » September 21st, 2010, 7:15 am

First let me say Vathara is a talented author and the story is pleasantly clear in its application of grammar and spelling tho her in-story metaphors do get to be a bit much.


Embers as I see it is a Zuko centric story set in season 2 with some nice world building at the start but it has rather severe issues with fairly applying the au elements. Up until chapter 19 I had found very few things I didn't like and then chapter 20 really made up for the issues of chapter 19. After chapter 20 tho almost every time the original cast is brought onto the stage it seems they are there only there to make the oc cast + Zuko (who himself is more then a bit OOC, but I can forgive that due to the hammer style application of Spirit bending) seem more justified or simply better people then the shallow dangerous and stupid OCs Vathara trys to foist off as the original cast.


1) Aang even in his own segments is consistently painted as being a stupid dangerous ignorant child of mass destruction who needs Vathara's Super benders to hold his leash at all times lest the Avatar doom the world of men in direct contradiction to Aang's canon Character.

I mean were talking epic level Flanderization, she basically blew canon Aang's moments of human weakness into a caricature of Air nomad culture more befitting an Ethnic cleansing's PR campaign and thats just the just the bits that haven't came from the mouths of Zuko and his better then everyone else super cult.

2)Making up thinly veiled excuses to cut out Mai and Zuko's relationship, then throwing 2 OCs at Zuko and Mai's feet and expecting romantic relationships to form spontaneously is just the kind of hamfisted writing that I'd expect form a 14yr Zutara fan writing for a fic challenge. I mean in 1 paragraph alone Vathara basically killed all of canon Mai character development that elevated her above Named goon status and replaced Mai with an OC who is trying to impersonate someone she doesn't know well. (Vathara later admitted this was an author tract edit.)(Checking her favorites it seems Vathara is a Zutaran )

3) In chapter 22 we find out that Vathara went back in time and change the Canon time line(this breaks the original plot conceit by the way) to reflect that Avatar Kyoshi Killed Chin the Conqueror and then set up the Dai Li to play Ghost buster because in the Embersverse Antiques turn evil and try to kill you if they are older then a century. Which in turn made the 46th Earth King very unpopular so the whole war was apparently a power grab on Chin's part, due to the Earth King keeping antiques. Anyway even after Chin's death at the hands of Avatar Kyoshi his army went right on razing the Earth kingdom for a time rendering his death a pointless homicide. After which they for reasons strange and unknowable returned to the site of Chin's death and still founded a town based on hating the Avatar for killing Chin which didn't really seem to inconvenience their war effort much according to Vathara.(This was just the first of many major plot holes)

4) The Taboo Vathara created That she claims Aang broke in The siege of the North doesn't make sense, its a plot hole. Saying its bad for spirits to visit any harm on humans is too simple. These aren't all wild dogs. They are the gods of the setting and more then capable of high level thought.They can and have been wronged in the past. They should be at least free to defend themselves. If they are not free to defend themselves and determine their own course. Then what are they to be, the human's pets? Also that would mean the AVATAR by the very act of defending itself would be breaking the taboo because it too is also a spirit. Essentially there needs to be a loop holes or this is the legal equivalent of trying to make it illegal for it rain on days that end in y.

5)To put it bluntly the story at this point is reliant on the readership ignoring plot hole after plot and some of the most unjustified out of character behavior I have ever found in a work so will writing from a technical stand point.

6) etc I could go on and on but its getting late here

So in closing I feel Embers could be best described as THE definitive well written AtlA bashfic as written by a recovering Zutaran fangirl who grew up and got herself a English lit degree


To be fair if she had simply changed the names of enough things I think embers would be a much better original story; Lords knows as it is now it barley pays lip service to the show it was based on so its not like she'd need change much.
Last edited by rabe on September 22nd, 2010, 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Lightwhispers » September 21st, 2010, 9:21 am

I will point you to Rule #2 here. You don't like the story. That's fine. We don't want to hear diatribes about how bad it is which approach personal attacks on the author.

I will point readers to the latest AN: Vathara has admitted that the story wasn't intended to be as AU as it has become, but what with researching what actually sparks genocides, and various other things, it snowballed. And yes, it is officially drastically AU. Also, if you have time read the referenced entry on Embers' Just Bugs Me page - it's about 4/5ths of the way down, and if you can get through the wall of text, is an excellent commentary. (Link in spoiler)
Spoiler: show
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby rabe » September 21st, 2010, 1:25 pm

I will point you to Rule #2 here. You don't like the story. That's fine. We don't want to hear diatribes about how bad it is which approach personal attacks on the author.
1)Why is this called a discussion if only praise is allowed?

2)Thank you for using a civil tone.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Lightwhispers » September 21st, 2010, 3:02 pm

1)Why is this called a discussion if only praise is allowed?
Criticism is allowable (and encouraged, at times). Your post bordered on attacking the author, not the story, which is why I referenced Rule 2.
Warning: the above may contain strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and logic (which may be unsuitable for stupid people).
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