Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby unknown87 » September 23rd, 2010, 5:42 pm

Embers as I see it is a Zuko centric story set in season 2 with some nice world building at the start but it has rather severe issues with fairly applying the au elements. Up until chapter 19 I had found very few things I didn't like and then chapter 20 really made up for the issues of chapter 19. After chapter 20 tho almost every time the original cast is brought onto the stage it seems they are there only there to make the oc cast + Zuko (who himself is more then a bit OOC, but I can forgive that due to the hammer style application of Spirit bending) seem more justified or simply better people then the shallow dangerous and stupid OCs Vathara trys to foist off as the original cast.
Vathara has slowly going further and further off the rails into AU territory as the fic has progressed - it started out only slightly AU, and snowballed badly - most of the characterizations she makes regarding the original gang make sense given particular extrapolations she makes regarding the cultures the various nations were based on and the additions made in worldbuilding away from the normal background of Avatar.

1) Aang even in his own segments is consistently painted as being a stupid dangerous ignorant child of mass destruction who needs Vathara's Super benders to hold his leash at all times lest the Avatar doom the world of men in direct contradiction to Aang's canon Character.

I mean were talking epic level Flanderization, she basically blew canon Aang's moments of human weakness into a caricature of Air nomad culture more befitting an Ethnic cleansing's PR campaign and thats just the just the bits that haven't came from the mouths of Zuko and his better then everyone else super cult.
Aang doesn't need a leash held - what's being highlighted here is that 1) Aang is twelve, and never received the sort of cross-cultural learning that normal Avatars would have gone through at 16 - he doesn't understand other cultures, though he does have superficial knowledge of them from his travels as a nomad. Yaoren are supposed to further help in that regard. 2) the Avatar is one person, and can't be everywhere at once - the yaoren are supposed to be the Avatar's friends, advisors, and helping hands - providing aid where the Avatar can't be.

Regarding Aang, we mostly see Aang's actions judged by Zuko's viewpoint and peers. SO, we've got an unreliable narrator problem there. Secondly, no offense, but Aang IS a dangerous ignorant child. He's twelve. Not only is he twelve, he's an anachronism as much of his knowledge is 100 years out of date. Not only that but at the point in the show where Zuko is - all of his knowledge of the Aang is from S1, where Aang showed very little maturity most of the time. On top of that, he's not in control of the Avatar state as far as Zuko knows - everyone in the area is in danger when Aang rolls out his GLOWING BADASS routine.
2)Making up thinly veiled excuses to cut out Mai and Zuko's relationship, then throwing 2 OCs at Zuko and Mai's feet and expecting romantic relationships to form spontaneously is just the kind of hamfisted writing that I'd expect form a 14yr Zutara fan writing for a fic challenge. I mean in 1 paragraph alone Vathara basically killed all of canon Mai character development that elevated her above Named goon status and replaced Mai with an OC who is trying to impersonate someone she doesn't know well. (Vathara later admitted this was an author tract edit.)(Checking her favorites it seems Vathara is a Zutaran )
Whut? I hadn't noticed any attempts to pair Zuko with anyone. Female OC's are there, but this doesn't seem like a Pairing fic - if romance develops as the story progresses, then fine, but Zuko seems a little busy with his personal plans for his Captain Planet nation for romance, and I hadn't noticed any females being 'thrown at his feet.'

Mai does seem kind of OOC, but frankly, I don't really feel like Mai and Zuko would really blossom into the kind of relationship they had in canon under the circumstances here - Zuko isn't hanging around with Ozai's Angels all the time, he's not confused and in need of a source of comfort, and deprived of Iroh's help, nor has he really fallen for Mai. Maybe it's just me, but I was under the impression that in canon, Mai carries a torch for Zuko from when they were kids, but Zuko doesn't entirely reciprocate - Mai grows on him after his return to the fold at the end of Season 2, and they are eventually both firmly in love with each other at the end of S3, but at this point, Mai carries a torch, but isn't in love, and that torch is extinguished when it's revealed that they are related. As has been stated, this fic's been drifting well into AU territory for some time now - this is just one of the changes.
3) In chapter 22 we find out that Vathara went back in time and change the Canon time line(this breaks the original plot conceit by the way) to reflect that Avatar Kyoshi Killed Chin the Conqueror and then set up the Dai Li to play Ghost buster because in the Embersverse Antiques turn evil and try to kill you if they are older then a century. Which in turn made the 46th Earth King very unpopular so the whole war was apparently a power grab on Chin's part, due to the Earth King keeping antiques. Anyway even after Chin's death at the hands of Avatar Kyoshi his army went right on razing the Earth kingdom for a time rendering his death a pointless homicide. After which they for reasons strange and unknowable returned to the site of Chin's death and still founded a town based on hating the Avatar for killing Chin which didn't really seem to inconvenience their war effort much according to Vathara.(This was just the first of many major plot holes)
As has been mentioned, the original plot conceit was that 'Zuko didn't steal the chocobo.' That's it. Every element since then has broken that one simple change. Fire Healing, everything we know about spirits, yaoren, dragons, bending affecting the nation soul deep, Water and Fire nations being able to emotionally manipulate people - all of it is not in line with the original concept, and frankly, I like it. I think that it's awesome worldbuilding, and I think the prime flaw you should point out here is that it's linear worldbuilding - as in it was not done wholesale and then applied to the plot, it's information only presented to us as the plot requires it, despite earlier chapters making no reference to it. For instance, in a early chapter, Zuko is called a traitor. How would he be a traitor? If he had broken loyalty, they'd expect him to be dead, by Ember-verse rules. There are plot holes in the work, but not in the spots you're pointing to.

Secondly, Emberverse spirits seem internally consistent. They're a blend of the Fair Folk and Japanese style kami. So 1)Fair Folk: the spirits by-and large have alien mindsets and run on Blue and Orange Morality - hence why the vast majority of people stay the hell away from them aside from making placating offerings and worship. They also affect those they touch severely, leaving people profoundly affected mentally and/or spiritually from encounters with them. 2)Kami - spirits are present in all things, but the bigger, more impressive, or older something is, the more powerful its spirit - hence why the Dai Li's running around dealing with 99-year spirits - that appears to the minimum age in the Ember-verse at which an item develops a spirit capable of awareness and manifesting itself in a major fashion. And if such an item is not properly cared for and placated, it gets angry and may wreak havoc. In a big city with a long history, having an organization dedicated to keeping that sort of thing in line makes sense.
4) The Taboo Vathara created That she claims Aang broke in The siege of the North doesn't make sense, its a plot hole. Saying its bad for spirits to visit any harm on humans is too simple. These aren't all wild dogs. They are the gods of the setting and more then capable of high level thought.They can and have been wronged in the past. They should be at least free to defend themselves. If they are not free to defend themselves and determine their own course. Then what are they to be, the human's pets? Also that would mean the AVATAR by the very act of defending itself would be breaking the taboo because it too is also a spirit. Essentially there needs to be a loop holes or this is the legal equivalent of trying to make it illegal for it rain on days that end in y.
Okay, it looks like you're confusing a few things here - one, the taboo that Aang broke is not that a spirit caused harm to humans, it's that he let a spirit possess him for the express purpose of attacking an enemy fleet. Spirits are dangerous in the Emberverse, and weaponizing them is the taboo because they don't distinguish friend and foe the way humans do - setting one loose is akin to waging war by utilizing weapons of mass destruction and ignoring all Geneva style rules of war. Aang's use of Ocean in this context means that it was akin to opening the cage of a rabid dog - it might attack your enemies but there's not a whole lot stopping it from turning around and biting you either. And this is a rabid dog that has the capability to cause serious widespread destruction rather than just a nasty bite and lethal infection.

The thing you seem to have latched onto as the taboo is that the Fire Nation fleet sunk. This in itself isn't bad, what's bad is that that's a whole lot of dead people, and without proper burials or at least some kind of memorial service, that's also a whole lot of restless ghosts seeking vengeance, right on the doorstep of the Northern Water Tribe.
5)To put it bluntly the story at this point is reliant on the readership ignoring plot hole after plot and some of the most unjustified out of character behavior I have ever found in a work so will writing from a technical stand point.
I disagree. I think several of the 'plot holes' you say you've attribute to the fic are not plot holes at all (not saying the fic doesn't have any, it has plenty as a result of the worldbuilding being ongoing rather than complete before the first chapter), but you haven't pointed out any of the serious ones here.
So in closing I feel Embers could be best described as THE definitive well written AtlA bashfic as written by a recovering Zutaran fangirl who grew up and got herself a English lit degree
Doesn't seem like a bashfic to me. It's harsh on the actions of the gang, and it justifies alot of the Fire Nation, villifies some of the Avatars, but on a whole the tone teems to be that EVERYTHING is screwed up, and on a much deeper level than in canon.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby DIT_grue » September 28th, 2010, 6:52 am

I'm looking forward to the next chapter this week, so tonight I was browsing the reviews on ff.net (because sometimes one will bring up a point I've missed) and Kryal raises a possibility that gave me a fresh case of the screaming heebie-jeebies: Harmonious Accord as the removal of all other elements. So the Temple Nomads (to coin an oxymoron) would be purely Air, rather than having a trace of Water to bind them to Family, and so on. Can anyone come up with a counter-argument? Please?

One other thing I noticed was when someone commented how much they liked the line about the pair from Kyoshi Island sparring with Shidan "to work off some steam" and I started wondering about the etymology of the phrase, and why someone from the Water Tribe was using language that had to originate in the Fire Nation.


Anyway, speaking of Avatar fanfiction, I also read Lavanya Six's latest oneshot tonight: Last Reproach. Oof! That one's going to stick with me a good long time, and may even become headcanon.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » October 1st, 2010, 11:14 am

New chapter is out, and can I just say, I love it that Vathara is concerned about the short chapter, when the thing is still 8100 words long. That's awesome.

Also, the insight into Azula in the first part of the chapter was definitely interesting, and I'm wondering how whatever it was that Amara did to Azula will affect her. Personally, the way I saw it, things just got more dangerous for Zuko, because now Azula can fail at something without going completely unstable. So instead of going the ranting and raving insane she was in the finale, Zuko will be dealing with the calm and collected and absolutely terrifying Azula that we're all accustomed to dealing with. Which is not necessarily a good thing.

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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby unknown26166 » October 1st, 2010, 3:53 pm

Azula still seems to hold Zuko in some contempt. Not believing that he could plan something himself, but that instead the plan was Iroh's, for instance. Its pretty amazing that she could get so close to the answers and just barely miss them because of her own prejudices and indoctrination.

One other thing though. When her mental state was described, it didn't seem natural. Did Ozai do something to make sure his prodigy child remained under his control?
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Tempest Kitsune » October 2nd, 2010, 3:26 am

It's also interesting to note the way Zuko's support-system is shifting away from Iroh and toward the other Yao-ren,
"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Thozmp » October 18th, 2010, 10:22 am

I'm looking forward to the next chapter this week, so tonight I was browsing the reviews on ff.net (because sometimes one will bring up a point I've missed) and Kryal raises a possibility that gave me a fresh case of the screaming heebie-jeebies: Harmonious Accord as the removal of all other elements. So the Temple Nomads (to coin an oxymoron) would be purely Air, rather than having a trace of Water to bind them to Family, and so on. Can anyone come up with a counter-argument? Please?
Had a strange thought earlier: We know that one can be starved of their element, but can one suffer from an overabundance? Too much Water/Fire, etc. If so, then Harmonious Accord wouldn't be the removal of other elements so much as being flooded with so much Air as to free a person of attachments, and enough could free Mothers of the attachment to their children, after all, Air is the element of Freedom.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby MrRigger2 » October 22nd, 2010, 11:33 am

New chapter is up. Distressingly short, but I suppose short update is better than no update, and she's keeping to her self imposed schedule, which is great. There's also some good insight into what makes Dragons so extremely different, but like I said, distressingly short.

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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Alotua » December 7th, 2010, 5:34 am

It's also interesting to note the way Zuko's support-system is shifting away from Iroh and toward the other Yao-ren,
If by interesting you mean sad :( The new turn of events that has Zuko feeling used and betrayed by his uncle totally bums me out; I miss the good old days when Zuko and Iroh were each others worlds.
Had a strange thought earlier: We know that one can be starved of their element, but can one suffer from an overabundance? Too much Water/Fire, etc. If so, then Harmonious Accord wouldn't be the removal of other elements so much as being flooded with so much Air as to free a person of attachments, and enough could free Mothers of the attachment to their children, after all, Air is the element of Freedom.
this is kinda off topic, but the whole Harmonious Accord thing and forced removal of the maternal instinct totally reminds me of the Healers from Sharon Lee and Steve Miller's Liad series (met them at a book signing this past Saturday and Oh my god, SQUEE!). I just finnished reading Local Custom and with the book still fresh in my mind I couldn't help being reminded of a passing exert from it about the Healers--who could erase a person's memories--being on hand to "blur memory and assuage any painful emotions the mother may otherwise experience" durring birth in a case where the child will be sent away to be raised by the family of the father and not the mother. So yeah, off topic, sorry :-/

Er, anyway, back on topic. This new chapter was quite interesting I thought (and long!). It didn't do much, just two scenes really, but it provided a little more insight into Shidan and Langxue. Ever since Langxue and his sister were introduced I've felt that the cast was a little bit crowded, but I'm begining to see with this chapter what role Langxue is going to play in terms of moving the plot along--that is, if he can achieve his stated goal at the end of the chapter.
Spoiler: show
I'm not sure what makes him think that he can convince Zuko to tutor the Avatar when no one else has managed it, but perhaps his past life experiences will give him some as yet unknown edge
Also, for a while now, one of my pet peeves with this fic has been that it has become rambling and has lost the action and fast paced plot which in earlier chapters was so engaging. Specifically, ever since Zuko and company left Ba Sing Se to sit on a beach with the Avatar and the Water Tribe for three days that lasted innumerable chapters, the story has been more drawn-out conversations than things happening. But the last few chapters have been short, and while some might see them as lamentably so, they give me hope (although I do feel for the author's RL issues that are the cause of the recent chapter's berevity) that a change from these long chapters in which very little gets done might be forthcoming. It certainly might be an opertunity for Vathara to take stock and re-focus her writing--but then again, maybe it's just me that thinks it needs re-focusing. Maybe what I'm actually missing is the vibrancy of the setting of Ba Sing Se as Vathara portrayed it and the cast of characters that inhabited that part of the story.
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Ruby Moon » January 22nd, 2011, 1:34 am

Chapters 37, 42, and 43 reveals a lot about the Air Nomads, yaoren, and why Avatar Kyoshi enforced the separate nations issue.
Spoiler: show
Skylord Subodei, Genghis Khan in real life, planned with Monk Xiangchen, his favorite shaman, to kill Avatar Hirata, and take his reincarnation and keep her locked away as a nun. It took a while and the help of yaoren Hyourin and Kaze to break her out of her shell, and see just what Subodei and Xiangchen had been doing. She and her yaoren fight them during what is known as the first Invasion of the North Pole, and she manages to take the Skylord, his warriors, and Xiangchen down. But not all of Xiangchen's followers. She and her yaoren die in a Heroic Sacrifice, something that Koh set up. After the volcano, the Air-Healers were treating lung-sickness from the ashes, whereby Xianchen's followers found them and took them away to the Temples, and not one ever came BACK.
Tao, like Aang, is 100 years outdated in terms of information about the spirits. Can't say that Langxue's plan will work now, if they see him as an enemy of the spirits.

An interesting thing to note, though, is that on Zuko's side is Earth King Kuei, who happens to know more than anyone else knows. Obviously having his own Library of Babel helps, as he's the only one with any real knowledge of the Yaoren besides the yaoren themselves. Also, Kuei's family had been targeted and killed by assassins from Taku.

Guess where Tao is from?
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Re: Embers by Vathara Discussion Page *spoilers likely*

Unread postby Lightwhispers » January 21st, 2014, 12:34 am

As of chapter 91, Embers is finished. And Toph is pretty sure she can make/acquire a fireproof cord, but (when she's old enough) will need help making sure it's red. :biggrin:
(See chapter 27 for the reference...)
Warning: the above may contain strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and logic (which may be unsuitable for stupid people).
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