Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Universe

[Wraith5]

Huh. I hadn't noticed that... Hm...

[doc.exe]

Well, turns out it was an even more powerful version of the Sage Mode.

I have to say that, even if it ultimately followed the plot structure that I was deriding (the nigh invincible villain keeps trashing everyone until the hero gains his 11th hour upgrade, then he proceeds to trash the villain), the first part of this chapter was honestly cathartic. Especially the part when Naruto no-sells whatever BS that “Limbo” thing was supposed to do. Of course, now Madara has also powered up/become complete/whatever, but hopefully genre convention will continue playing its part.

[doc.exe]

Well, that “Limbo” stuff explains some of the BS that Madara has been pulling off in the past few chapters, like how he stabbed Sasuke and subdued Tobirama so easily. Not all of course, for instance, I don’t get how a clone/duplicate from a phantom/negative dimension could have allowed him to subdue the Bijuu then seal them in the Gedo Mazo, but I suppose there is still more to that jutsu that will be explained in following chapters.

Anyway, it was nice to finally see a balanced battle at the beginning of this chapter, with Naruto and Sasuke countering him and putting him on the defense. Not to mention Madara being forced for once to stop with the smug act and admit that he could not keep underestimating his opponents.

…Of course, then Kishimoto just had to go for the cheap “DRAMA!” TM injection and had him easily steal Kakashi’s Sharingan then appear on the Kamui dimension, ready to kill Obito and Sakura and reclaim the other Rin’negan eye. Because of course the villain HAS to be at full power and the heroes HAVE to be at disadvantage for the battle to be “EPIC!” © . No matter the fact that he is once again violating the rules he established previously for his fictional universe (Obito, despite being the original owner of Kamui, lost the ability to use it when he became the Juubi jinchuuriki), or that these frankly stupid plot decisions hinder the storyline by reducing Madara from a credible or interesting villain to a cheap Diabolous Ex Machina.

I have to say it: If Madara just gets the Rin’negan eye next chapter then proceeds to trash everyone again with the “FULL POWAH LIMBO” or whatever, I will lose any semblance of respect I still have for Kishimoto as a writer.

Edit: You know, it’s curious how many of the problems I currently have with Naruto (and at some time, with Dragon Ball and many other shonen fighting anime for that matter) just got succinctly explained in this io9 article.

[jgkitarel]

In other words, he's following the standard formula for a shonen fighting series.

I have to constantly keep in mind that we are not the group Kishimoto is writing this for. Not us as in forumgoers, but us as in non-Japanese readers who find ourselves liking Japanese media. While cases such as One Piece show how a well balanced power curve works very well, most series do get ridiculous by our standards. However, it works very well towards its target demographic, Japanese male youth who want the sense of escapism.

[doc.exe]

That’s a very fair point, jk. Certainly sometimes I forget that we are not the target demographic and many members of said demographic tend to not care or mind it too much.

Although, I would argue that some criticism in terms of the power curve is still fair, given that other fighting series on said demographic that mange the power curve better tend to also have better storylines overall (Rurouni Kenshin and Full Metal Alchemist immediately come to mind).

[jgkitarel]

Granted, the power curve criticism is apt, but that article also explains that the balancing act is difficult. FMA and One Piece showed some masterful world building with clear scaling and introducing many of the big antagonist players early, even if it was to show that said badass was not something the protagonists could hope to touch. Both also managed to remain internally consistent with their rules.

Rorouni Kenshin is interesting as many of the techniques shown are actual sword techniques and little demonstrated by any of the characters are things that are impossible for a human to do. The story realistically portrayed just how long, how brutal and how young they had to start training to become that skilled.

Frankly, I think what happened with Naruto is that after the time skip, executive meddling started playing a distinct role, as pre-timeskip was rather consistent and a lot of the inconsistencies and problems happened after it.

[MEKristian]

This week on Naruto:

"THAT WAS ALSO ME!"

[Wraith5]

*Madara used Obscenely Complicated Evil Plot.*
*It's super effective!*

*Kishi used convenient excuse.*
*It's barely believable!*
...Even if it does kind of make sense, in the same way the method Palpatine used to turn Anakin all the way into Vader. Hell, it's pretty much the same method!

Anyways, I think (in most cases) someone who's only used one eye most of the time would have some problems with depth perception once they got a second eye. (Sure, Kakashi had two eyes for pretty much his entire life, but after that one mission (when he was, what, 14 or 15?) he only used the second in high-level combat.) I mean, people can kind of work out a pseudo-depth perception just using size differences (say, 2 people are the same height, "person one looks X (arbitrary descriptive variable) tall, person two looks half as tall, so person two is twice as far from me as person one") but real depth perception uses triangulation (if you know the length of one side of a triangle, and the two angles adjacent to it, you can find all the other angles, lengths, etc.).
...I did a bad job describing that.

...Uhh, I just realized, after typing all of that, that Kakashi probably used his Sharingan while training fairly regularly, likely so that he keeps as many jutsu in his working memory as possible and stays used to the strain of using it (see first battle of the wave arc). Sooo... he's probably still used to regular depth perception, assuming that the Sharingan doesn't tell you the distance/spacing/whatever in some instinctive manner. Since there isn't enough to actually FIGURE OUT THE LIMITS on a fully matured Sharingan...

[doc.exe]

That’s why I nicknamed them the Uchiha Sith Lords, because the reference just keeps getting more blatant every time. Hell, Madara was pretty much shooting Force Lightning last chapter.

Now, it was kind of hinted since the first flashback that Madara had something to do with Rin’s death, what with how certain he was that Obito was going to come back and join him. But the way is presented here certainly stretch believability, from the implication that despite being old, feeble and dependent on life support, Madara somehow had been watching/monitoring Obito for a long time and was aware of the hidden potential in him (so their encounter wasn’t by chance and he rescued him from the collapsing cave on purpose?), to the implication that he had sleeper agents (disguised White Zetsu?) with a great deal of influence on Kirigakure’s politics (which muddles the timeline even more considering Obito later takes control over the village).

Honestly, outside of a couple of interesting details (Obito lost the duel with Kakashi on purpose, Nagato was genuinely ubber powerful given how he managed to handle both implanted Rin’negan and the six paths of Pain) I found the chapter very underwhelming.

I’m not thrilled by the implication that Madara is going to become even more invincible given what I have already said about the power curve. I’m also not sure what to think of the extent of Naruto’s “healing touch” power. Restarting the life force on Gai’s heart was one thing, but magically producing a new eye out of thin air… Ok, we all know he is the second coming of Ninja Jesus, but c’mon!

Also, while I understand where Kishimoto is coming with the teamwork part and Team 7 reuniting, I can’t help but think that flashback was pure padding. Not to mention the imbalance in power might be troubling: Sakura might be at Tsunade’s level, probably a bit higher, but Naruto and Sasuke are god tier now.

I also wonder how Kakashi will fare in the coming battle (although I hadn’t thought about the depth of perception issue until Wraith mentioned it). On one hand, he obviously still retains his combat skills and all the techniques he copied along the years, without the burden of the constant chakra drain from the Sharingan. On the other hand, his best/more powerful techniques were dependent on the eye.

[Phht]

Clearly Sakura's going to somehow steal the 10T from Madara and become a Jinchuuriki like Naruto. Then we'd have something that kinda harkens back to the Kagura and her sons thing, except it's Sakura and her two teammates. Also possible a Team7 pairing.



But yeah, completely underwhelming chapter.

[jgkitarel]

How will Kakashi fare? Well, looking at shonen tropes and literary tropes in general, the prognosis is not good. After all, we need a reason to have Team 7, or just Naruto, perhaps others, to unlock their Superubergodmodewillonlybeusedagainstthevillainsuemainantagonist powers.

[Disconnected]

The way I see Naruto's new Uber healing ability is that the Sage's Perfect Izanagi (or whatever that bullsh*t reality warp power was called) was one of the things he was gifted by the Sage, So it's more of an altering reality to suit his needs then it is healing poeple.
But thats just my inpression

[Wraith5]

On the subject of 'altering reality,' I'm wondering if these 'abilities' are going to have negative repercussions in the future. Like, say, leaving Naruto (or someone else) crippled for life once all is said and done... I'm stopping there, in case Kishi gets any ideas from here... (And just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean he couldn't.)

[JamestheFox]

... So. Infinite Tsukiyomi. It's being activated.

Yay for Sakura taking initiative... Yay for her shrugging off Madara stabbing her to punch him in the FACE... Boo for the stupid invisible wall stopping her punch.

Hey, it's Chibaku Tensei... being used to rain death on people. Okay. That's one way of using a "Gravity Well absorbs mass until it's a planet" jutsu.

[doc.exe]

Well, I suppose it doesn’t exactly count as Madara trashing everyone because Naruto and Sasuke still managed to fight back and unleash their own overpowered attacks to counter him. But I’m not pleased by the fact that he still won by casting the Infinite Tsukuyomi. It was foreshadowed when he absorbed the rest of the God Tree, but instead of feeling like a genuine moment of dramatic tension, it once again feels unearned because of all the BS he has pulled off in order to achieve it.

Now, while I wonder if Kishimoto is going to reference the Road to Ninja movie (which he wrote if I’m not mistaken), considering this series is already suffering from a serious case of ending fatigue, another couple of chapters of everyone trapped in the genjutsu dimension doesn’t thrill me at this point. Not to mention that by genre convention, it’s obvious the deus ex machina is just going to appear in the end to save everyone.

As to Sakura… sigh… so much for the whole teamwork speech regarding Team 7 . I suppose it would have been unbelievable for her to do much against Madara given the discrepancy in power. But still, you have to wonder what’s with the author and this perverse fascination of always robbing her of the chance to be awesome in combat?

[Phht]

At least she kept fighting after getting stabbed? I mean, the last kunoichi that jumped into a fight involving Naruto and got stabbed by one of those rods didn't get up until after the fight after getting healed. Which means that Sakura still manages to avoid being treated as poorly as Hinata. But at least both of them are still ninja and not a housewife like Kurenai was post-skip.

[doc.exe]

I think both are treated equally poorly, Hinata just seems to have it worse because she receives overall less screen time.

But really, while the author occasionally throws them a bone (Hinata slapping the depression out of Naruto before Obito turned him to the Dark Side, she using the Kyuubi chakra to swat aside one of the Juubi’s tails, Sakura discovering and one-shooting the disguised White Zetsu in the hospital tent, she revealing Tsunade’s ultimate technique during the fight with the Juubi spawn), he is more prone to ignore them, treat them as “faux action girls” rather than genuine competent fighters, or relegate them to the role of “potential love interest” (did anyone else face-palmed when the first thing Sakura did after being brought out of the line of fire was to sulk because “Sasuke-kun doesn’t care”?)

Of course, you can also argue that pretty much every other female character in this manga has it as bad as or even worse than them, but that’s not comforting. If anything, while is good that Kishimoto has so many female characters (because too many other shonen manga don’t even bother), it’s incredibly troublesome how poorly he treats them on average.

And well, now that I have taken that out of my chest, I’m going to stop beating the dead horse. Thank you for your attention.

[Disconnected]

So... That explains how he's gonna keep everyone alive inside the genjutsu I guess?

[Tempest Kitsune]

*is vigorously stabbing a voodoo doll of Kishimoto with a boot knife.*

[doc.exe]

No, no, Tempest. You should use a surgical drill, it’s more painful that way.

Sigh... I feel frustrated by the chapter and the fact that we are in another "Darkest Hour" (again!), but ambivalent about certain details.

Some observations (spoilered for length):

Spoiler: show

- The mechanics of how the Infinite Tsukuyomi works are not particularly original (it’s pretty much an organic fantasy version of the Matrix) but they make some sense. What doesn’t make much sense is the propagation of the jutsu, even for a series that tends to regularly give the middle finger to the laws of Physics: Ok, light radiated that covers the entire planet, penetrates any surface and catches your eyes even if you are not looking directly at the source? That’s how sunlight actually works, but I have many reservations about moonlight working that way. It’s incredibly over the top in any case. Although more ridiculous is the idea of the roots/vines from the God Tree covering the entire world and trapping everyone in an instant.

- Sasuke was able to “shield” the rest of Team 7 which is good. The bad: If Naruto and Sasuke were at Madara’s power level before, now they are on disadvantage again because he is going to channel the energy of everyone trapped in the Tsukuyomi. So he is even more invincible (again! ). I’m seriously starting to hate the concept of serial escalation.

- Bee is alive! I assume the tentacle has enough bijuu chakra to keep him alive even if the rest of Gyuuki was sealed in the Gedo Mazo… Of course, it won’t make much good unless his super shades somehow protect him from the Tsukuyomi.

- Minato is… well, not alive but not down yet. Although once again, even if the Edo Hokage are immune to the Tsukuyomi (probably because they don’t have any life force that the God Tree can use), you have to wonder how useful they will be if Madara can dispel them with a simple attack.

- Turns out Phht theory about Yamato being the host of the Spiral Zetsu was true. Now if only Kishimoto revealed what happened to poor Anko…

- The part with Tenten and the Sage tools… Ok, I found the idea of them somehow bringing Madara’s downfall really lame, but they being just crushed by a rock is even more anticlimactic. What was the point of showing them at all then?

- Hinata was still conscious before the vines covered her. Does that mean the rest of the victims of the Tsukuyomi are also conscious but immobile? The “Dream World” doesn’t start until they are covered by the vines? Or is she and/or any other Hyuuga an exception due to the Byakugan or something along those lines? (Inner Hinata fanboy: Please, let it be the final case so at least she and the Byakugan can be useful in the final battle).

[Wraith5]

Yeah... this is just turning into a "Oh no! He's powering up! It is time for me to use my new highest power level!" fight... You almost have to wonder if Team 7 is going to just merge their chakra into a massive Rasengan punch from Susanoo...

As for the rest of it, I agree with doc. Especially the part about Hinata...

[MEKristian]

Welp.

Stupid Lunarians always making everything worse...

[Phht]

I liked the snapshots of what several of the people were dreaming of, especially Hinata and Kiba. Also, Mei's.

I think I'm getting action fatigue at this point, and now it's suddenly "NOPE New Final Villain Appears!" What we need is to watch the dreamers, with them realizing it's a dream and making the decision to leave the wonderful world they're in to return to reality, and breaking free to help Team 7. It gives a break from the fighting and action, while allowing no real time to pass regarding the sudden "plot twist" so we don't miss any of that either. And then the freed ninja reveal the Elements of Harmony and free Obito from Nightmare Moon... I mean, Kaguya.

[doc.exe]

Ok, I remember someone joking once (I think it was you Phht) that Zetsu was going to be revealed as the true mastermind, but I never really expected it to become true. On the other hand, it was kind of foreshadowed that Kaguya was behind everything in the past few chapters.

Now, I think it’s kind of anticlimactic if Madara just gets killed like that after the entire BS he has pulled off in battle (mostly because it means he was never actually defeated in combat), but on the other hand, it actually fits as an ironic punishment and laser guided karma, especially considering his last conversation with Obito.

And well, I found the snapshots of the dreamers interesting and/or amusing, but I’m not sure about devoting extended time to them. Although I agree it would be cool if they realize they are dreaming and proceed to free themselves to help Team 7. But I think it would be better to intersperse sequences like those with the mandatory “philosophical debate about right and wrong” and “exposition of what truly happened/how I planned everything” that is obviously going to follow between Team 7 and Black Zetsu/Kaguya/whoever the next boss is going to be. In part to economize time, in part because, honestly, Kishimoto is terrible when it comes to follow on plot threads that get interrupted.

[JamestheFox]

Such betrayal. Much dismay.

So... To divert a little... Rock Lee's Springtime of Youth. A few... things... happened. Maybe the insanity is what we need to get our minds off... um... the insanity.

Spoiler: show

Kishimoto designed aPost-Timeskip Hanabi outfit for the gag comic.

Rock Lee gets Hinata and Hanabi to spar, to show Hiashi "Hinata's True Power!"

I liked the gag where they basically pulverized each others' fingers with 8T32P. It was predictable, but silly.

Then Lee somehow gets Hinata to try and defeat Hanabi with the one thing she CAN'T beat her at... sex appeal. Cue swimsuit Hinata... somehow. This obviously has no effect but to embarrass Hinata. Neji smacks him for this, but it's not over. Oh no. What follows is the mind-scarringest thing in the chapter.

... Bikini Hiashi. I needed to reboot after seeing it, even in super-deformed style. It was horrifying. Moreso than even Bikini Lee and Gai. Or maybe I've gotten used to seeing Lee and Gai in bikinis thanks to this spinoff. Then Lee gets the entire Hyuuga clan, it appears, to join him in a "Harem Jutsu." This includes Neji, who is protesting all the while.

Anywho. This gag worn out, Hanabi proceeds to reveal that she's spent all this time training with Hiashi... and that she's about to unveil the most powerful technique she learned...

Eight Trigrams Father's Stinky Socks. Then Eight Trigrams 32 Socks. Hiashi's reaction is priceless.

Then Naruto gets brought in to give Hinata a little boost of determination... and is suddenly made to wear a suit by Lee (who apparently moves at the speed of funny considering how many outfits he's forcibly changed other people into by now). Hinata is also changed into a casual dress. Lee then tells Naruto that it's time for him to meet Hinata's father. Cue Hiashi (and NEJI) overdramatically wondering if he's here to try and win her hand, embarrassing both.

Hiashi then warns Naruto that he'll have to be prepared to go around with Byakugan eyes from now on if he really wants to join the family. So... apparently all you have to do to get Byakugan is join the Hyuuga Clan. Huuuuh...

Anyway, Hinata then manages a win through determination and 8T32P+Twin Lion Hands. Hiashi recognizes Hinata's strength, and... happily ever after until next issue, I guess...

... Also, the Hyuuga Clan's ladies have taken to wearing bikinis everywhere.