Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Universe

[doc.exe]

Well, turns out the Kaguya clan and their bloodline limit do originate from Kaguya-hime after all. I think it was Phht who pointed that out. In hindsight, I should have noticed that she has the same markings in the forehead that Kimimaro had. Makes me wonder if, like the Byakugan, that bloodline was passed through the brother of the Sage and what other lines may descend from him if that’s the case.

And thankfully, Naruto’s “miracle healing hands” have limits. In part because the whole “Ninja Jesus” thing was already too heavy handed, in part because it’s actually ridiculous how many things Obito has survived already.

And well, regardless of the plot itself and its execution, I’m actually starting to enjoy this fight. The characters crossed the line to DBZ power levels long ago, but the emphasis on tactics, trickery and deception makes it entertaining. Like how super powered ninja would be expected to fight. It also helps that Kaguya being a literal goddess actually makes her reality breaking powers less annoying than all the BS that Madara was pulling off. And well, Naruto is very likely going to return to subhuman levels of intelligence in a couple of chapters, but I’m enjoying his current level of competence for as long as it lasts.

[Farmer_10]

With Kaguya and Black Obito the only real issues are execution. If we had actually gotten some earlier hints, teases and proper buildup this would've been a suitably epic boss battle. Not to mention actually giving us an earlier heads-up as to what the cap is on power levels in this series would've made most of this arc a lot more tolerable. Properly executed, higher and epic displays of power are just the logical byproduct of serial escalation. Botch it up and it's just asspull after asspull.

[JamestheFox]

So, another fairly straightforward chapter. We see how it turned out that it was the Clone that got instagibbed. Kaguya realizes that Naruto's got a tell: the real one is the one that has the ball-things with him. Sakura and Obito peek into the other dimensions, including one that is an OCEAN OF ACID (Seriously, why did she not just toss Sasuke in there?). Sakura ditches her flak jacket and a sleeve when both get splashed with Acid because Obito's portal opened SUBMERGED IN THE OCEAN OF ACID, but still sutains damage. They find Sasuke, Sakura nearly wipes herself out trying to power Obito long enough to let Sasuke through. Sasuke STILL has to bust out what he claims is another new power, but only looks like a presumably sped-up Substitution Jutsu, to swap places with Sakura's discarded Flak Jacket, catches her, and thanks the two of them, more or less telling them he could never have managed getting out by himself.

I kinda like that last note. Sasuke is actually admitting his weakness in this one instance. Sakura actually kinda did something (even if it was just being the battery for Obito and unwittingly supplying the item that Sasuke could swap with).

Also, there's the distinct possibility that this swap-technique is going to be what does Kaguya in. Naruto attacks Sasuke, who insta-swaps with Kaguya at the last second. Boom. Rasengan to the face.

Hey, Kakashi did it to Naruto all the way back during the Bell Test. It's not... ENTIRELY impossible.

[Phht]

She didn't throw him into the ocean of acid world because she needed to suck his chakra off.

And clearly you aren't thinking convoluted enough. Naruto throws a Rasenshuriken at Kaguya. Sasuke follows it in with Naruto behind him. Kaguya dodges the Rasenshuriken, Sasuke swaps places with it. This puts Sasuke behind her and the Rasenshuriken flying right at her again. She's forced to dodge it again, and gets caught between Sasuke and Naruto. Naruto gets caught just before he can touch, but turns out to be a KB that dispels. Naruto's arm reaches through the smoke and the Super Palms of Ultimate Destiny Mass Annihilation Neutralization technique goes off, sealing away Kaguya and Black Zetsu. With her no longer in the way, Naruto and Sasuke's hands continue forward into a high-five.

Cue credits victory scenes.

[doc.exe]

Honestly, part of the reason why I’m enjoying this fight is the “victory conditions” and how they are forcing the combatants to rely on tactics and misdirection rather than on mere displays of raw power to achieve their objectives.

Kaguya is powerful enough that she could have insta-killed both Naruto and Sasuke multiple times already, yet she doesn’t because she hungers for their chakra. Meanwhile, Naruto and Sasuke have a seal that can defeat her instantly, not to mention they have become extremely crafty with both their old techniques and their new powers, so even if they are at disadvantage in terms of power level, they are not defenseless. And even if Black Zetsu has convinced Kaguya of at least killing Naruto, both have realized how unpredictable he can be so they can’t underestimate him.

The fact that both sides have to be cautious around each other or risk instant defeat is making the battle truly interesting.

The inta-swap technique that turned out to be Sasuke’s Sharin’negan secret power certainly looks at first like just a faster substitution jutsu, although he was able to use it to swap places with Jinchuuriki!Madara and his Limbo clones, so is not exactly normal.

And well, Sakura might have acted primarily as a battery, but Sasuke will be a hopeless jerk if he doesn’t start giving her at least some respect after this.

[jgkitarel]

And well, Sakura might have acted primarily as a battery, but Sasuke will be a hopeless jerk if he doesn’t start giving her at least some respect after this.

Considering the track record for women and respect in this series as it is, don't hold your breath.

[JamestheFox]

So... Obito's dead. But he's repented, and Ninja-Jesus forgives all.

Also, Naruto chopped Kaguya's ARM off. That... I don't know what to think.

How often does he physically dismember anything that isn't a remote-controlled body or some such? Because this is... more or less, the first time I can think of that he's done anything like that to ANYONE.

It's pretty awesome, but at the same time, I'm not sure how in-character this is. This seems like the sort of thing Naruto would do back when he would go berserk with Kyuubi Chakra...

... Thinking back, did Kyuubi-Naruto ever actually do any lasting damage or kill anyone? Because nothing comes to mind.

... By the chakra, Naruto's Superpowered Evil Side has never managed to really harm anything in a fight! Like... ever! It's done jack to Sasuke, to Orochimaru, to Pain... Heck, he didn't even seriously injure Haku!

[MEKristian]

... Thinking back, did Kyuubi-Naruto ever actually do any lasting damage or kill anyone? Because nothing comes to mind.

Four Tails did almost kill Jirayia, but I don't know if you're counting leaving him with a chest scar.

[JamestheFox]

There is that, but it was offscreen so I'm somewhat meh about it. And it didn't really inconvenience him in the long run (would have been sad as heck if it had turned out that the injury actually slowed him down during the Pain fight, though).

I just think it's interesting. Most people with this kind of power have conflicts about using it because, while it gets stuff done, it just as often does serious harm to one's allies as it does one's enemies. And yet we never really see that happen with Naruto. Every foe we've seen him go berserk on more or less handles it without much issue. Pain was the closest to stuff actually going down, and that's only because Kurama was about to be freed completely, at which point it wouldn't have been a superpowered evil side as much as it would have been... well... a superpowerful evil being (or as evil as Kurama is).

Orochimaru walked away with pretty much no injuries, as I remember.

Sasuke lost nothing but a headband, and a perfectly good shirt.

Sure, Naruto's SURVIVED because of the Kurama-mode. But I don't think he's ever actually triumphed with its help. Except maybe against Neji. Kinda. Sorta. Maaaayyyybe.

It might be part of the theme of the manga. Hate, revenge, etc. = Useless. Only by overcoming our hatred and never giving up on each other can we find peace...

[doc.exe]

I was getting unnerved by how Obito was on the verge of beating Orochimaru’s record as the most unkillable thing in the manga. His death was fitting, even if unnecessarily sappy at times.

Now, he ultimately atoned for his sins (heck, the only reason why the good guys have any chance of saving the world right now is because of him), and it’s true that he was manipulated into the Dark Side by Madara. But even then, when you consider how he was still the major culprit behind ALL the suffering that Naruto endured in his life …Ok, Naruto is Ninja Jesus and forgives all and I understand the anger at the Black Zetsu for mocking Obito. But declaring him to be “the coolest guy” because he shared his dream... that just feels wrong (then again, I suppose is useless to complain at this point considering how the manga tends to treat Itachi as the patron saint of martyrs ).

@ JamestheFox Mmmm… Not quite. Spoilered for length:

Spoiler: show

It’s possible to argue that Naruto has never actually killed or permanently maimed someone with the “berserker” mode of the Kyuubi (which, thinking about it, it’s an amazing plot contrivance), but that doesn’t mean it has been “merely an inconvenience” for his enemies. It was actually instrumental in many of his fights, and barring a few exceptions (Orochimaru in the Forest of Death, Kimimaro during the Rescue of Sasuke arc), whenever it enters in play Naruto tends to get a second wind and his opponent is put on the defensive, forced to use an ultimate or forbidden technique to fight back, or thoroughly owned. Most of the time, the heroic second win alone is what allows Naruto to prevail even if he didn’t use Kurama’s chakra to directly defeat the enemy.

The truly curious thing here is that, in some cases, his opponents would have actually been killed if not for something convenient happening that gets Naruto out of the berserker rage. Haku, for example, was getting the beating of his lifetime and Naruto would have dealt him the finishing blow if his mask had not fall off at the right moment.

Orochimaru is really the only one that has managed to hold his own against one of the tailed states (Pain was getting owned by the 6 tails form, Sasuke only managed to fight back against the 1 tail form by activating his own super mode with the cursed seal). But he would have been shredded by the 4 tails state at least three times if not for his own regenerative abilities, and he wasn’t unscathed afterwards: His current host body started to reject him exactly at that point, implying the stress of the battle accelerated the degenerative process (that’s also part of the reason why he avoids battling Naruto afterwards, even when he had him at his mercy in the hideout).

Interestingly, that battle was also the only time the manga explored the dangers of the super powered evil side with more depth: The transformation was truly monstrous, it was mentioned in passing that using the tailed form diminished his life span (although that part was ultimately negated later by plot developments), he almost killed Sakura twice, and after talking with Yamato and seeing the destruction he caused, Naruto vowed to not use the bijuu chakra again and rely on his own strength (of course, that was also negated later by the plot).

And well, I honestly don’t think it’s OOC for him to rip off the arm of Kaguya (although it seems he is actually aiming to separate the Black Zetsu from her body). Naruto has rarely killed someone (I think the only human he has actually killed was the sand nin that Pain used to create the Itachi clone during the rescue of Gaara), but he isn’t exactly adverse to deal severe punishment to his enemies, even if most of the time he only ends skewering clones or not-quite humans like the White Zetsus. Besides, I think he is aware that Kaguya can regenerate.

[MEKristian]

so, Kakashi can do a thing now.

[doc.exe]

Well, Kakashi can do more than one thing now. There is the issue of chakra consumption, but if the upgrade is permanent, he is easily beyond the level of the other kage now.

And Sakura had a token moment of usefulness! It doesn’t really make sense (Kaguya had the Byakugan activated, she should have seen her coming and dodged her attack), but given how rare are her moments to shine, I’m not going to complain.

In any case, it seems the battle finally ends next chapter. I wonder if whatever thing the Sage and the Hokage were preparing will come at play then.

[Phht]

You forgot that the Byakugan has that "1 degree" blindspot, didn't you? I mean, Sakura is the last person that Kaguya would need to worry about usually, so she was probably concentrating on Naruto/Sasuke and a bit on Kakashi. Then when Sakura made her move, Kaguya was looking down, which means Sakura was likely right smack in the blind spot of the bloodline.


Side note: If Kaguya's been draining all chakra from the captured people... how many ninja/others have died to give her that much power? Will we end up with a single village's worth of ninja survivors that'll band together under a single kage?

[JamestheFox]

She may have simply drained them to near-0 levels of Chakra Exhaustion. In which case it's going to take time to recuperate, but no one's outright dead.

[JamestheFox]

So, Kaguya and Zetsu are dealt with. Hopefully forever.

Wait... does this mean the Ninja World's sky is going to have TWO moons now? Awesome.

The Tailed Beasts are all free again. Well, except for whatever is still left inside Naruto and (If he's still alive) Bee.

Also, Madara's been brought back, seemingly whole again. So that's a thing.

Now, we've got 10 chaps or so till Chapter 700. That sounds like as good a place to end things as any, Kishi. Make it happen. Wrap up all the remaining loose ends. You can do it!

[doc.exe]

That new moon was created inside Kaguya’s dimension. I have some doubts it will be visible from the ninja world. Then again this is a fantasy setting with little regard for the laws of physics.

That also means that unless someone enters that dimension again (bordering on impossible considering just what the Rikudou Sage himself had to do to summon Naruto and company back), Kaguya and Black Zetsu were sealed away forever.

What I wonder is if with Kaguya’s sealing the Infinite Tsukuyomi was also dispelled, or if they need to do something else to put an end to it.

I’m not thrilled by Madara being brought back. I only hope Kishimoto doesn’t fall on the temptation of extending the series even more by having another battle with him. Of course, there is another possibility that while not really more thrilling would be a bit less frustrating: Hashirama has one final conversation with him, Madara realizes his mistakes and repents by sacrificing his life with the Rinne Tensei/dispelling the Infinite Tsukuyomi if it has not been dispelled yet.

And well, there were some rumors that the end of the series was going to happen shortly after the release of the new movie, so yes, chapter 700 would be a good finishing point.

[JamestheFox]

Wasn't the moon summoned WITH Naruto and the others back to the main world?

Plus, I find it hard to believe that the last time she got sealed she was still in the main world. She was likely sealed by the Sage within one of her minidimensions, and the moon came with them to the real world.

[doc.exe]

I had to reread the chapter to be sure, but no: The moon remains in the other dimension while they are summoned back to the normal plane.

[MEKristian]

Honestly, I'm not expecting Madara to do anything else, at best I think he'll just converse with Harashima about their ideals before passing on. If he's not already dead and we only saw his corpse or something...

[doc.exe]

Well MEK, you were right about that. In hindsight, Madara losing the Juubi and the other bijuu meant he was doomed, but considering how he just kept breaking the established rules of the setting again and again, I was wary about that. Interestingly, it seems he also lost the Rin’negan and Mokuton, implying Kaguya stripped him of everything.

I suppose the point of that final conversation was to drill into Naruto and Sasuke that they should put aside the eternal conflict between Indra and Asura and work together… Of course, Sasuke is going to completely ignore that because the manga has to end with their final battle.

And look, Kishimoto patched the “team work” and “passing the torch to the new generation” themes here. Or at least tried.

A shame Kakashi’s upgrade was only temporary, but it was cool while it lasted.

I still wonder if the Infinite Tsukuyomi was dispelled and what happened to those trapped in it. Also, what happened to the Spiral Zetsu and the surviving White one?

[MEKristian]

Oh Sasuke, you little scamp.

[Phht]

Ah, so "I want to be Hokage" meant "I want to be undisputed god-emperor of the ninja world."

Goddammit Kishi, just last chapter I was thinking "I actually like this chapter. Seems like it could be the start of a nice set of chapters winding down the series."

Nope, gotta put more fight into things, because clearly fans haven't had way too much fight in a short period already.

[doc.exe]

Well, that answers my question about the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

I was also expecting a couple of chapters of things winding down a bit, rather than it jumping directly to the final fight. But then again, this is a shonen fighting manga so... *shrugs*

And this was completely unsurprising really. If anything I’m surprised by how focused was Kishimoto in having this as the final battle that he reworked the plot and myth arc of the manga to ensure peace could not be achieved otherwise.

[Phht]

Now all we need is for next chapter to have a dramatic... Rock, Paper, Scissors game to determine the winner. Though it was absolutely a crazy, jutsu-filled battle when anyone asks either of the two.

Personally, I blame Hashirama. His leaving allowed Sasuke to slip back into Avenger Mode from where he had become a normal person.

[Phht]

How the hell can Sasuke receive all this positive attention and commentary, and come to the craziest fucking conclusions that are the complete opposite of what he's told?