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 JK Rowling's Snape ending 
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Joined: September 10th, 2015, 8:10 pm
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Unread post JK Rowling's Snape ending
Sorry if this has been discussed here, but in ding a bit of NoFP re read and in one of the notes the esteemed author says JK will have to pull out a 400lbs rabbit to redeem Snape. So I was wondering if her reveals in book 7 were enough?


September 26th, 2015, 1:03 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Not really. He may have been in on Dumbledore's (dubious) plans, but that alone doesn't make him a good man.

In a discussion with some friends, he was compared to Stalin. He started WW2 allied with Hitler, but after Hitler turned on him, he joined the Allies. That doesn't make him an angel. (And yes, that is a massive oversimplification of a complex historical period, I know.)

So no, not redeemed, per se.


September 26th, 2015, 8:43 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Not even close I reckon. Harry naming his son after him was a WTF moment for me when reading the epilogue.

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September 26th, 2015, 9:18 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Yeaaaaaah, that's why I pretend the epilogue doesn't exist. Gave an oversimplified "happy ending" that ended up just feeling forced and sappy. Snape was a good mole, but not a good person. Brave, but unethical. Then again, you kinda have to be to be a good mole.


October 11th, 2015, 10:25 am
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
I think that comparing Snape to Stalin is going too far -- Snape didn't do any death camps. I agree that Snape isn't nice, but he doesn't have to be in order to do his job. Still, his love of Harry's mother being what drove him back to goodness was, to my mind, too much like stalking. I approved of his change of heart, but I think JKR justified it very badly.

I would have had Severus be someone who desperately wants to fit in with the pure-bloods to please his mother, and is attracted to the Dark Arts through morbid intellectual curiosity. When Voldemort approaches Severus with a new pure-blood club for people who like the Dark Arts, he leaps at chance to accomplish both goals at once. Only gradually does Severus come to realize just how bad the Death Eaters truly are, and how far Voldemort is planning on going -- but while Fenrir and Bellatrix and Lucius go all the way, becoming utter monsters, Severus stops short. This is a feat of immense moral and physical courage, but he accomplishes it. He goes to Dumbledore, and becomes the Order's spy among the Death Eaters. I imagine that even Dumbledore was initially immensely suspicious, but that he is convinced over time by Snape's successes.

As for the death of Harry's parents -- in order for Snape to be a credible double agent, he had to pass on plenty of real information along with the fake stuff. He was indeed spying on Dumbledore that night, and passed on Dumbledore's conversation with Sybil Trelawney as a matter of course, not realizing that what he thought were inane babbling was a true prophecy.


October 11th, 2015, 8:16 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
EmoteControl wrote:
I think that comparing Snape to Stalin is going too far -- Snape didn't do any death camps.

Snape willingly joined the Magical Hitler Youth and was a loyal Magical Nazi for years and years, and only turned away because of said Magical Nazis finally targeting someone he had personal involvement with, not because he'd come to a general ethical revelation.

So, its not an unfair comparision.

Quote:
I agree that Snape isn't nice, but he doesn't have to be in order to do his job.

The only job where 'nice' is a job requirement is customer service. That doesn't give the rest of us a free pass to be assholes.

Not being an asshole is something you're supposed to do simply because civilized people are expected to not be assholes, not because you're being paid to do it.

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Still, his love of Harry's mother being what drove him back to goodness was, to my mind, too much like stalking. I approved of his change of heart, but I think JKR justified it very badly.

I don't consider a turn back to good at all. I just consider it a changing of targets.

Severus Snape went to the Death Eaters because of hate, possessiveness, and vindictiveness. And then he shifted to fighting against Voldemort because of... the exact same reasons.

He never changed the content of his character. He just changed his enemies list.

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As for the death of Harry's parents -- in order for Snape to be a credible double agent, he had to pass on plenty of real information along with the fake stuff.

You got the time sequence wrong. Snape is still a Voldemort loyalist at the time he passes that shit on. He only approaches Dumbledore asking to defect AFTER Voldemort puts Lily Potter on a high-value target list.


December 20th, 2015, 11:47 am
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
And don't forget that for all the alledged love he had for Lily Evans, it wasn't enough for him to even make a token attempt at treating her son as would be expected of a decent human being. His hate for James Potter, heck, hate in general, defined him more than love did. It says a lot about him that he would transfer the issues he had against James Potter to Harry while completely disregarding Harry's relation to his only friend.


December 20th, 2015, 6:46 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Chuckg wrote:
EmoteControl wrote:
As for the death of Harry's parents -- in order for Snape to be a credible double agent, he had to pass on plenty of real information along with the fake stuff.

You got the time sequence wrong. Snape is still a Voldemort loyalist at the time he passes that shit on. He only approaches Dumbledore asking to defect AFTER Voldemort puts Lily Potter on a high-value target list.

If you read the post again, that wasn't analysis of canon but an explanation of their idea for a superior character arc.


December 20th, 2015, 10:59 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Honestly, how Snape was handled by Rowling was one of the bigger plot holes in the series. Yes, there were signs that he wasn't on Voldemort's side, but his reasons for having changed sides were handled badly. Not because they're unrealistic. God knows people change sides and betray allies for less reason to this day, with horrific consequences, but because the way it was narratively handled was a bit more ham fisted and was as blatant as brick to the head at the end.

There was no proper build up, which while itself unrealistic, is a narrative method that is normally used for a reason. Even if there wasn't a proper build up, the twist could have been handled better, given that a plot twist designed to stand a reader's perception of a character can be done, if not easily.

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December 24th, 2015, 12:48 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Aye, that's why I kinda have issues with it, too. That, and I really doubt how much he really loved Lily, even as a friend, because he wouldn't just be happy that she was happy with James. He didn't have to like it, and he would've been well within his rights to voice his objections since James was a massive dickhead, but it just looked like he was little more than a Nice Guy (TM). He was just obsessed with her due to an abusive home life, much like Merope Gaunt and Tom Riddle, Sr except, as far as we know, Snape at least didn't use magical date rape drugs on Lily, so I suppose that's a point in his favour.


December 28th, 2015, 1:37 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Please, people... recall that the only person we know for certain James was an asshole to was Snape. And Snape was a real prick when he was younger. You know, being a british neo-nazi even back in school.

You know what we call that? We call that Acceptable Targets.

Also, recall that Snape was fine with Baby Harry getting killed so long as he got Lily for himself. That's not love, that's entitlement.

Besides, if he loved her so much, why couldn't he look past Harry's resemblance to his father and focus on the fact that, you know, Harry is the son of the only real friend he ever had?


December 28th, 2015, 7:45 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Dechstreme wrote:
Please, people... recall that the only person we know for certain James was an asshole to was Snape. And Snape was a real prick when he was younger. You know, being a british neo-nazi even back in school.

Actually, given that Voldemort was active at the time, even "neo-Nazi" is being mild. Snape did the equivalent of joining the actual Nazis, during World War II.


December 29th, 2015, 1:26 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Chuckg wrote:
Dechstreme wrote:
Actually, given that Voldemort was active at the time, even "neo-Nazi" is being mild. Snape did the equivalent of joining the actual Nazis, during World War II.


.... Are the only redeemable things about him that he liked Harry's Mom and the whole double agent schtick?


December 29th, 2015, 1:46 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Dechstreme wrote:
Chuckg wrote:
Dechstreme wrote:
Actually, given that Voldemort was active at the time, even "neo-Nazi" is being mild. Snape did the equivalent of joining the actual Nazis, during World War II.


.... Are the only redeemable things about him that he liked Harry's Mom and the whole double agent schtick?

Basically? Yes. Even with his memories, which any wizard with a penchant for the mind magics can alter, his true loyalties are still easily questioned. Why? Because he's a spy, and as was pointed out in Faery Heroes, it is very difficult to know where their true loyalties lie, since deception is their watchword.


January 4th, 2016, 10:14 am
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
Furthermore, the whole 'He needed to act up at Hogwarts because double agent cover' thing is ludicrous, however sincerely Dumbledore seemed to believe it.

Snape escaped being sent to Azkaban in 1981 when Bellatrix and the rest were being sent up because Dumbledore convinced the Wizengamot that Snape was spying against Voldemort on his behalf. This is canon as of Goblet of Fire. Let us repeat: the entire Wizengamot had already been told Snape was Dumbledore's double agent a decade before Harry even showed up at Hogwarts. Snape DIDN'T HAVE any "cover" left to preserve! He was completely wide open! He was even more wide open after refusing to help Quirrell!

The only reason Voldemort took him back after his resurrection is because Snape convinced him that he wanted to start spying on Dumbledore again, and brought him enough inside info from Order of the Phoenix meetings to make it look convincing. That's canon as of HBP (witness his opening scene with Bellatrix in Spinner's End, where he 'explains' everything to her). Sure, that was a con job him and Dumbledore set up together, but Tom believed it.

But the relevant point here is that Tom's welcoming Snape back into the Death Eaters even after his first, publicly recorded betrayal of same, had absolutely nothing to do with his classroom behavior, or doing favors for Draco, or anything. That's all fanfic cliche.

So it all counts against Snape's alleged redemption in canon, all of that behavior in class. Because none of it was actually necessary for his job. He did it because he wanted to, and because he could get away with it thanks to Dumbledore's apathy or gullibility, I'm not sure which.


January 12th, 2016, 3:37 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
"The Snape Chronicles" does a reasonably good job of a canon-compliant sympathetic Snape, IMO. Be warned, however, that it also involves a great deal of torture etc. Voldemort managed his Death Eaters with the stick, rarely the carrot.


November 9th, 2016, 12:02 am
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
IIRC, the Snape Chronicles explanation for Snape's behavior toward Harry is a mixture of:

- Resentment when Harry doesn't immediately match Snape's idealised concept of Lily's son;
- Continually catching Harry in situations where, let's face it, Harry displays a significant lack of control over his temper (which is a cardinal sin for a master Occlumens like Snape);
- Generally not liking students or teaching very much, but having to stay under Dumbledore's control and protection as part of the settlement after his trial (he was convicted and basically placed on parole);
- And later, an awareness that he will need negative memories of Harry (and Dumbledore) for when he returns to his role as double-agent and must let Voldemort look into his mind to review his Hogwarts years.

Plus, the time when he cancelled Harry's Occlumency lessons and threw him out, remember that Harry - whose mind Voldemort could access - now knew about the time when Snape and Lily's friendship snapped, and he knew that that memory was important enough for Snape to want to conceal it (it really was a gross ethical/privacy violation for Harry to do that), and yet Snape hadn't already shown that memory to Voldemort, which could lead Voldemort to deduce that Snape could and was concealing things from him, specifically about Lily...yeah, Snape seriously freaked out.


November 9th, 2016, 7:42 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
For me it was amazing and in the book and in the movie how Snape was created as a dark character but he actually was a good one. Because for me for sure he is a good character in the final.

Last year I was dreaming that I was Snape but in fact I was bad and I check it in that dreambook
http://www.moj-sen.info and find out that it is a good meaning :)

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May 8th, 2017, 7:50 am
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
I guess this is mostly a question for viridian, but I wonder what was going through NoFP!Snape's mind when he asked Harry about asphodel and wormwood. Because it says a lot about his attitude to the Boy-Whose-Mother-Died-To-Save-Him.

Of course, even merged!Harry didn't recognise its significance, despite knowing the face value answer, which may just have upset Snape even more than ignorance would have.


November 14th, 2018, 6:37 pm
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Unread post Re: JK Rowling's Snape ending
I really like the character arch of Professor Snape. There a few Game of Thrones characters who have a similar arch I think.


May 1st, 2019, 7:05 am
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