Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Universe

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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby doc.exe » April 25th, 2015, 2:45 pm

Looking at some recent details online, the kid’s name is Mitsuki and it seems very likely he will be the third member of Boruto and Sarada’s team.

With a name like that, it gives some credence to some theories I read that he might be related somehow to Toneri from The Last movie.
On a more serious note, Himawari and Bolt don't appear to have the Byakugan so if that is indeed the case it gives rise to a pet theory that Byakugan only passes down on the male Hyuuga's x or y allele. Which would also explain why after all this time Hinata has never been branded with the seal. Pretty big oversight on Kumo's part not to have studied or understand genetics and Recessive/Dominant traits when they tried to kidnap Hinata at the age of three.
I was going to retort that Kaguya gave birth to a child with Byakugan, but then I remembered that we don’t know anything about the father of her sons, and that for all that we know, the Otsutsuki clan might have had the Byakugan before Kaguya ate the fruit of the God Tree (what with they apparently being literal aliens from the Moon).

Still, being somewhat fair to Kumo, if it is indeed an issue of gender-linked hereditary traits or recessive alleles, it is entirely possible only the Hyuuga themselves knew about that, what with being so paranoid about their bloodline limit.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby jgkitarel » April 26th, 2015, 6:08 pm

It could also be overwritten by other dominant traits. It is not unheard of for a dominant trait in a family to become recessive in a branch of it due to a different dominant trait from a different bloodline.

You also have to keep in mind that dominant and recessive traits don't always breed true in all given circumstances. All dominant and recessive genes really do is determine the likelihood of those genes triggering. Then you also have to take into account that for a bloodline to develop requires a rather comprehensive eugenics and selective breeding program in order to stabilize the desired traits.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby ewuvi » April 30th, 2015, 4:12 pm

I stumbled back to the forums and people are talking genetics?!

Going to start off by saying that we don't actually have enough data to make a definite conclusion. And from a fanworks perspective that's actually great because you have so many directions you could go with this.

First of all, there is no way that Byakugan is Y-linked since Hinata and Hanabi have it. This is said with the assumption that they are both genetically typical females, but given the context I think it's a fair assumption to make. There is also no such thing as a male-exclusive x chromosome. When a male passes his x onto a daughter, then the daughter would pass that x on to half of her offspring. Hinata and Hanabi aren't X/O (so they didn't get one gene from their mom and none from their dad) because Hinata at least is fertile, and they would probably look a lot different than they do if that were the case.

It could certainly be recessive, but that would have a lot of funny consequences. Like, do they bar breeding outside of the clan? They'd basically have to. I mean if there were male Hyuuga getting the hanky panky on outside of the village during, say, missions then I would expect the Byakugan to show up eventually out there. I mean to show up in a male offspring all that would have to happen is a mother with a Hyuuga father passing down her recessive byakugan trait. It'd probably disappear after one generation, unless they got it on with another woman of Hyuuga descent in which case having kids that with the Byakugan phenotype would be 50-50 with each kid. Unless birth control is 100% effective, Konoha is really good at assassinating anyone who gets it on with a Hyuuga, or Branch men are somehow incapable of having sex without permission, then another hidden village finding and collecting these kids to get the Byakugan wouldn't be that improbable.

I mean obviously the branch Hyuuga are fertile and can have sex, because Neji exists. Forcing them to get permission before being able to have sex would be pretty humiliating and further strip the dignity of that entire part of the family, so it's interesting that there appears to be a sudden reconciliation between the two branches of the family. Though I suppose they'd also have to intermarry with the branch family which would be weird. Like...HinataXNeji might be possible in this scheme since they're about the same age; but then Neji would have a chance to effectively be the clan head so...I don't know. Weird stuff lies that way.

Also so much inbreeding would be going down this way that you'd think they'd have a reputation for being ill or crazy after as many generations would need to exist to make a large, purely Byakugan phenotype clan.

It actually could also be dominant, which would open up a different can of worms. We don't actually see Hinata or Neji's mothers at any point so it's possible that one of them had a mother that wasn't a member of the clan. It would have to have been Hinata's unless we have an instance where someone has an unexpressed dominant allele which can actually happen, although it's very rare. Anyways, if it were Hinata's mom, then perhaps reason why her Byakugan isn't as "good" as Neji's could be a problem of co-dominance between a non-Hyuuga mother and her father. She doesn't have any brothers but if she did and they didn't have the Byakugan at all what would have happened to him? This might also explain why in a society that is as sexist as the one in Naruto's appears to be, a female heir isn't surprising in the Hyuuga clan. They were disappointed in her weakness, not her gender, after all.

If it were Neji's mom then there would be the whole "how did that gene not get expressed in his mom what the hell is going on, genetics is freakish" thing and it might explain some of the weirdness that the rest of the clan seems to have about him in addition to him being brilliant.

Limiting breeding outside of the clan would still be an issue in this case, although more for keeping the Byakugan to themselves rather than also being necessary for the retention of it in the clan.

Another possibility is that Hinata's just a freak and her ovum were screwed up by Kyuubi's magical chakra or something to that effect. Her kids should have had byakugan but don't, and no one says anything to her or them about it because that would basically be suicide.

Honestly though, it could have just been that the author doesn't know anything about genetics and decided that Naruto's genes would be dominant no matter what cause his genes are totally going to overpower Hinata's cause that's totally how genetics works. Except when they have daughters. Then they can have dark hair (How does Bolt have blonde hair I don't understand). Or maybe he didn't even give it any thought at all and decided that since their last names wouldn't be Hyuuga they wouldn't have Byakugan and he liked their designs without creepy, pupil-less eyes more anyways.

Also as jgkitarel got at, genetic interactions are weird, mistakes do happen so variability is inevitable, normally dominant traits can be silenced very occasionally, etc. etc. etc.

tl;dr: There are a boat-load of explanations as to why Himawari and Bolt might not have Byakugan and each of them would lead to interesting implications that might be fun to explore in someone's fanwork.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby Wittgen » May 2nd, 2015, 9:45 pm

words
I stumbled back on the forums and was reminded of how great ewuvi is.

I think Kishimoto said the reason the kids don't have byakugan is that he just forgot. But if/when Naruto and Hinata have a third kid, that kid will have byakugan.

I don't have a source, so it's not definitive. But very believable.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby Nebula1701 » May 2nd, 2015, 10:00 pm

If he had forgot then this could be corrected in the future.... Though the fix may be plot dependent
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby Wraith5 » May 3rd, 2015, 12:27 am

Depending on plot devices, the activation of the Byakugan could cause their eyes to change to the default Hyuuga appearance (sort of like: normal eyes > first activation > default Hyuuga eyes). Just a thought...
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby jgkitarel » May 3rd, 2015, 3:14 am

In other words, new powers as the plot demands.
Also, I have to punch you, jgkitarel, because I spent a lot of time on the nanoha wiki trying to locate information on mages being trained due to being above a certain rank, only to remember and confirm that you were the one that came up with that. - Phht
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby Wraith5 » May 3rd, 2015, 7:50 am

Pretty much... *shrug*
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby doc.exe » May 4th, 2015, 2:09 am

I do remember reading the interview Wittgen mentions, but I don’t have time right now to look for the specific source.

In any case, regardless of whether or not the kids will unlock the Byakugan, it’s probably better to not think too hard about how their lack of it works in-story. Putting aside Kishimoto’s understanding (or lack of it) regarding genetics, he has kind of established already that phenotypes in Naruto’s world deviate heavily from how they work on the real world. And I don’t mean that only in the sense of “some genes give you super powered eyes with weird exotic patterns”.

Just two examples: Sakura’s father has red hair while her mother has blonde hair, which somehow resulted in her having pink hair (i.e. a lighter shade of red). Meanwhile, Hashirama (brother with dark hair) and Tobirama (brother with white hair) had a third sibling with a rather implausible IRL mix of both dark and white hair. As in, one half of his hair was white and the other half was dark.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby ewuvi » May 4th, 2015, 5:55 pm

ZOMG wittgen reappeared and said things! Woo!
I think Kishimoto said the reason the kids don't have byakugan is that he just forgot. But if/when Naruto and Hinata have a third kid, that kid will have byakugan.
That is so beautiful. I love that that happened, actually.

I'm pretty sure that unless an author's story is actually dependent on realistic genetics (actually sometimes not even then, it's like they try but not really?) that heredity is determined by The Rule of Cool Character Design. I'm down with it since it's clear they're not even trying. Also magic and aliens. I mean come on, Naruto is not a science-based comic.

If someone does want to inject a little realism into a fanwork though, I think it's best that they use something that is as accurate as they can get if they're going to try to pass it off as being a scientifically reasonable explanation.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby viridian » May 5th, 2015, 12:10 am

One reason world-building is HARD... it requires the creator to have more than passing knowledge of an incredibly wide variety of topics... any one of which may be a prospective reader's specialty.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby MEKristian » May 8th, 2015, 10:13 am

While I'm sure everyone's going to continue to complain about the Uchiha thing, I'm kind of liking Sarada as a character so far. The lack of obvious insanity helps immensely.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby JamestheFox » May 8th, 2015, 10:51 am

Oh god there's a new Sharingan guy. What the crap. And they want revenge for Sasuke killing Itachi.

And don't think I don't see that Akatsuki cloak under that second cloak, prick!

Naruto has upgraded to the digital age, but Sasuke's still stuck in the analog past. What a hipster.

And apparently Orochimaru is still doing Sharingan science BS. Greeaaatt. Here I was hoping that you learned your lesson.

Chou-Chou... unlike in Sarada's case, I'm fairly sure the folks who raised you are indeed your parents.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby Wraith5 » May 8th, 2015, 12:04 pm

It's also entirely possible that Sarada was just conceived through artificial insemination as part of one of Orochi's experiments, then Sasuke found her and brought her to Konoha. We don't really know enough at this point to have any real confidence in our speculations.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby doc.exe » May 8th, 2015, 8:14 pm

I have to admit I’m intrigued by the identity of the onion-haired kid, the Akatsuki guy and whatever their connection to Itachi or the Uchiha are, even if another Uchiha/Sharingan related conspiracy was the last thing I wanted from this miniseries.

In any case, I like Sarada and Chouchou, so ultimately the focus on them is a plus.

And well, my personal theory, rather than Sarada’s parents not being her “true” parents (because seriously, Kishimoto is not being even subtle with the trolling anymore ¬_¬), is that something happened during her birth, probably similar to what happened when Naruto was born or when Kumo tried to kidnap Hinata: Mysterious Akatsuki guy comes to spoil the party with an interest in the newborn, fight ensues, something horrible happens (probably requiring Karin’s sacrifice), the records are sealed and Sasuke has to leave the village and his family behind to go on a quest to set things straight (and yes, as outlandish as it might sound, my personal theory is that the Sharingan of the onion-haired boy is not his, but rather from Sarada).

ZOMG wittgen reappeared and said things! Woo!
I think Kishimoto said the reason the kids don't have byakugan is that he just forgot. But if/when Naruto and Hinata have a third kid, that kid will have byakugan.
That is so beautiful. I love that that happened, actually.

I'm pretty sure that unless an author's story is actually dependent on realistic genetics (actually sometimes not even then, it's like they try but not really?) that heredity is determined by The Rule of Cool Character Design. I'm down with it since it's clear they're not even trying. Also magic and aliens. I mean come on, Naruto is not a science-based comic.

If someone does want to inject a little realism into a fanwork though, I think it's best that they use something that is as accurate as they can get if they're going to try to pass it off as being a scientifically reasonable explanation.
Got to say this is very fair point. I still think you would need to tweak the rules just to keep things consistent with the established fictional universe (or go with the “it’s my fanfiction and I do what I want” rule, which is pretty valid =D), but really fair point indeed.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby MEKristian » May 14th, 2015, 8:24 pm

At least we know that, unlike his parents, Bolt/Boruto has had a perfectly normal childhood.

Sure, it results in petulance, but he is a kid.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby JamestheFox » May 14th, 2015, 9:01 pm

I... What the sweet heck is that thing with the Sharingan!?

OH SWEET HADES THAT OTHER GUY'S EYE! AAAHHHHHHHHHHH

SO MUCH BODY HORROR SOMEONE HOLD ME

Also, I'm going to be disappointed if these guys can fight toe-to-toe with Naruto. Just... considering everything he's capable of nowadays. This Shin guy better be internal monologuing: "Oh crap oh crap oh crap oh crap"
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby Wraith5 » May 14th, 2015, 9:23 pm

And it sounds like Naruto has an idea of what's going on...

Personally, I think it's possible someone found Obito's stash of Sharingan (IIRC, he had a wall full of glass jars with Sharingan) and is pulling some kind of BS cloning. (Maybe not even cloning...) shrug
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby doc.exe » May 15th, 2015, 12:49 am

Those things in his eye remember me of the chakra receivers that the Six Paths of Pain used as piercings. And that… creature he is using for spying looks very similar to the Juubi spawn. For not saying he is using the Sharingan as if it was a Rin’negan… Odd…

But putting aside the mystery of the new Uchiha Sith Lords, gotta love the Sarada/Chouchou tag team. 8-)
At least we know that, unlike his parents, Bolt/Boruto has had a perfectly normal childhood.

Sure, it results in petulance, but he is a kid.
This is actually one of the details that I’m liking the most about the mini-series so far. Boruto and his friends are pretty much typical children with normal family lives. Sarada is the only one with the closest thing to a sad or traumatic backstory and even then she is still in a far better position than her father at her age. She is way less antisocial as a result. It is a nice change of pace and reflects well how the QoL of the Ninja villages improved in Naruto’s new era.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby MEKristian » May 21st, 2015, 9:53 am

This week on the adventures of Sarada:

Naruto is best father figure! Bet nobody could have predicted that way back when...

And freaking Sasuke, I know you've probably never seen here, but she should look enough like Sakura for you to not threaten her with violence immediately!
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby doc.exe » May 21st, 2015, 5:15 pm

Sasuke is not going to win an award to the best parent at this rate, that’s for sure. :you_seem_to_be_serious:

Sarada activated her Sharingan. That makes my theory bunk, but I find interesting how her love and desire to meet with her father is what is triggering it, rather than a feeling of impending loss.

I don’t really get what Shin did with his Mangekyo. I get it’s meant to evoke Sasuke’s trick of making a Fuuma shuriken explode into projectiles, but I don’t get what it is supposed to be (a form of Amaterasu?) And the Juubi spawn (or whatever that thing is supposed to be) has Kamui and can talk or be used as a communicator by the Akatsuki guy? Mmmm…

I liked the conversation between Naruto and the girls. Particularly his, ehem,“little” embellishments of reality. :biggrin:

Yes, he is turning out to be a good parental figure, despite what some people might say.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby JamestheFox » May 22nd, 2015, 8:58 am

GOSH DARNIT SASUKE.

Also, Naruto is shaping up into Bestdad. At least, when he's not neglecting his actual kids due to work issues. All we need from him now is a few dad jokes.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby MEKristian » May 28th, 2015, 3:40 pm

... There's a joke in this villain's appearance, but it's hard to choose just which one.

Also, hey, Sasuke comes around without murdering his daughter; he's making progress! But Naruto is still the better father figure.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby doc.exe » June 1st, 2015, 2:15 am

Published in another site but whatever. My impressions from the chapter:
Spoiler: show
- Sasuke continues the proud Uchiha tradition of disappointing the person that admires him the most, in this case his daughter. At least he reacted on time and didn’t murder her, so I suppose that indeed counts as progress for him.

- If anyone still has any doubts that Sarada is Sakura’s daughter, this chapter should honestly dispel them. Sarada clearly inherited the temper of her mother. She also pretty much called out her father on… well, everything.

- Naruto of course feels guilty because he was the one who approved the status of secrecy on Sasuke’s mission, and approaches Sarada to comfort her. At what point in the timeline his flashback happens is iffy though. While the implication seems to be that this is the beginning of Sasuke’s extended mission away from the village and his family, every character looks like they do in chapter 700 and Naruto is called Hokage, so this had to happen when Sarada was between 6 and 8 years old. It wouldn’t make much sense that she can’t remember Sasuke if he was in the village back then and that Sasuke can’t even recognize her face. It also doesn’t answer the reason for the secrecy regarding her birth. Then again it is mentioned that Sasuke had been investigating Kaguya before and maybe he continued doing that after his first “redemption trip”, so the assumption someone can make is that he was away from the village even before the point showed in the flashback and only returned briefly to report his findings. Of course, on the other hand it would hardly be the first time that Kishimoto screws up with the timeline and the character appearances and ages (I mean, just check pretty much all the flashbacks involving Itachi).

- On a different matter, the new Uchiha Sith Lord (who I’m going to call “Eyeboy” in honor of the X-men character, at least until we get an official name) intrigues me: He has a Sharingan that somehow emulates the shared vision field of the Rin’negan, he also has the Kamui like Obito, and his Mangekyou can materialize weapons and pointy things out of thin air. He also took Danzo’s … ehem… “implementation” of the Sharingan to its logical extreme, so one has to assume he found Obito’s stash.

- I remember reading a theory positing that Shin and “Eyeboy” could be clones. This chapter seems to confirm that at least Shin is a clone and that there are more like him.

- The revelation that there is a menace that might be more terrifying than Kaguya which is why she needed an army… not going to lie, while this does answer one of the lingering questions left behind by the original series, I’m not exactly pleased with it. As I mentioned before on this forum, I wasn’t very keen at first with the idea of a miniseries or movie continuing the story. One of the reasons was the power levels and the “sorting algorithm of evil”: Naruto and Sasuke have become so powerful that finding a new threat that can genuinely challenge them seems just ridiculous at this point. A power curve out-of-control was one of the major problems towards the end of the manga. I just hope this doesn’t result in a scenario that we will regret later.

- I also suppose that “Eyeboy” is reforming the Akatsuki as an envoy of whatever this new threat is supposed to be. You have to wonder if Orochimaru is also involved somehow.
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Re: Naruto Discussion 4: Discussion at the End of the Univer

Unread postby JamestheFox » June 2nd, 2015, 12:35 pm

Regarding the age/appearance thing...

The Last: Naruto the Movie was set about 2 or so years before any of the nextgen kids were born (presumably, since they're all in the same class), and Naruto and his friends had more or less the same appearance as they do now (barring clothing). So I feel Kishi is still at least potentially right (there's still the issue that Kakashi was Hokage during The Last).

I'd set that flashback... somewhere between The Last and the actual birth of the nextgen kids. Sasuke left Konoha on a self-discovery/redemption journey, then came back when the events of The Last happened, which likely prompted him to start worrying about the possibility of a force stronger than Kaguya, which eventually leads to him leaving again to start looking for them and trying to learn what their evil plan is.
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