Mass Effect Discussion Thread (Warning: Spoilers)

[Satori]

Well keep it up! You penchant for creating diabolical weapons of mass destruction is a gift to be treasured!

Hmmm... it'd certainly be ironic wouldn't it? The Reapers, priding themselves on finding a way to force galactic civilizations on a certain path of development of their choosing, with the end goal being to destroy them once again, stopped, nay, destroyed by a race they hadn't planned on becoming galactic, a race that was off the map because the Protheons made one last attempt to hide away their knowledge and technology from the mechanical doomsday squad.

That's humanity for us. We take advantage of one little screw up you made and then us it to our eternal advantage!

That is the plot of several ME fanfics, you realize?

[Arganaut]

This is true, although really its a natural step to take, considering that the big theme of the Mass Effect Universe in and of itself is that there's something uniquely human about Shepard (or something unique about humanity in general) that allows us, and those around us, to be inspired into doing great, if otherwise impossible, things. The idea that the Reapers never saw us coming, or overlooked the possibility of our appearance somehow, is rather natural evolution in the fandom's thinking.

Anyway, I've been doing some extra thinking into the possibilities of what would become of the Quarian Pilgrimage in the event of our previous discussions on the Alliance-Quarian Pact and I think I might've hit upon a vein of thought while driving out in the rain.

The general idea behind the Pilgrimage in the game was for Quarians to go out into the world in order to obtain materials/objects/data that would improve the lives of the fleet. A new ship, supplies, data on the Geth, etc. Considering that in this situation the Migrant Fleet would be able to dock in human ports to re-supply, do repairs and trade, the large part of the purpose of the Pilgrimage would be greatly diminished.

Still, a need for a rite of passage of some sort is still required. So, instead of making the goals of the Pilgrimage so vague, the Quarians begin to specifically designate Pilgrimage tasks based upon the career/set of training a Quarian might possess.

A Quarian training as a marine might have a 'Pilgrimage' consisting of spending some odd years training in the Alliance Military Program. It'd help teach the Quarians military techniques straight from a race that rather handily panicked the Turians into near full-scale war soon after discovering Mass Relays, but would also serve as another diplomatic point of bringing the two allied races together.

Quarians training as engineers might be sent off to worlds belonging to other races in order to pick up some new invention or blueprint that other races might be working on, and bring it back to Alliance/Quarian hands. A Quarian diplomat might work alongside a human counterpart. The ideas go on.

Of course, obtaining data/knowledge/Intel pertaining to the Geth that would help the Quarians to reclaim their home world would be a Pilgrimage gift that would be acceptable throughout any of the possible tracks or training options.

[Phht]

I have to say, I never really thought about what would happen to Quarian culture should they settle somewhere. Good for you! As a bonus, it does make nice sense to keep that, but just alter it to better fit current circumstances.

--

Anyone else annoyed at how there's no official galaxy map showing where the hell stuff is? Like, I get that the Terminus Systems are in the "upper right" of the galaxy due to ME2. And the Traverse is in the "lower right" of the galaxy due to ME1. But where's the Skyillian Verge? What, exactly, is 'council space' on the galaxy map? Where are the "territories" of Turians, Salarians, and Asari? Oh, and Batarians. And where the hell is the Veil actually located? I at first thought it was down somewhere in the far lower/center right of the galaxy, but then while playing ME2 I got the feeling in was way in the upper right of the galaxy.

The fact that mass relays allow a lot of sections to be skipped around makes figuring regions and areas of control extremely difficult. :(

[Arganaut]

I agree. The map is so vast but rather empty when you stop to take a look at it. No borders, no generalized regions marked out, not even lettering overtop a portion of the map labeling the general region as 'The Traverse' or 'The Perseus Veil'. From what can be gathered, however, Citadel space spreads all the way from the bottom-left corner of the map, circles the center of the galaxy, and ends somewhere within the reach of Illium (as it was described as on the border of the Terminus Systems). Zhu's Hope was a human colony, and was thus likely close to or within the border of the Traverse, as that's where, as you note, you spend your time in ME1, so Feros likely marks out the border between Alliance Space/Citadel Space and the Traverse. The Perseus Veil sounds like it borders the Terminus system in the top-right corner of the map, as we don't really see Citadel Planets beyond Omega, and the planet where Tali's recruitment mission takes place is in the top right corner of the map, and described as 'within Geth Space'.

Really, this is all just vague speculation... which brings us back to your original point: it'd be really helpful if we were given more distinct borders on the map in order to decipher just where we were in the terms of the galaxy. Hell, even failing to get a hold of political borders, signs on the map pointing to physical borders (like the Perseus Veil or the Skylian Verge) could be the very least they could do.

[Phht]

I went looking to see if I could find a ME2 galaxy map (or a combined one) and discovered that the iphone ME game added a new cluster north of the citadel that is supposedly more lawless than the Terminus systems.

Some border-ish concepts by clusters:

Spoiler: show

Terminus: Eagle Nebula, Shadow Sea, Hawking Eta, Pangaea Expanse, Omega Nebula; (maybe) Styx Theta

Traverse: Calseton Rift, Sentry Omega (definitely); (probably) Kepler Verse, Maroon Sea, Hades Nexus, Nubian Expanse; (maybe) Styx Theta

Citadel space: Exodus Cluster, Local Cluster, Crescent Nebula, Krogan DMZ, Serpent Nebula, Minos Wasteland, Valhallan Threshold, Titan Nebula, Sigurd's Cradle, Strike Abyssal, Hourglass Nebula (right on the border with the Terminus - a gateway cluster)
Argos Rho cluster is the location of the Pinnacle Station and thus is probably Citadel space. Horse Head Nebula is most likely Citadel space (with the exception of Noveria).

Perseus Veil: Far Rim
Hades Nexus cluster is near (but not in) the Veil. The Phoenix Massing cluster has Firewalker: Geth Incursion mission, which would seem to indicate it is near (but not in) the Veil (it also has the Heretic Station, so is probably pretty close to it). This generally indicates the location of the Veil, though we're missing a border for the remaining edges of it.

Unknown: The Phoenix Massing, Rosetta Nebula, Pylos Nebula (This one may be close to another border of the Veil, considering it has two Geth missions in it), Nemean Abyss (from ME: Galaxy game, I'd probably drop it between Eagle Nebula and Serpent Nebula so it's bordering Terminus while still being close enough to the Citadel for the game's map to work).

So Citadel space is largely the lower left quarter of the galaxy, with the outer 'shell' of the upper left quarter and a little bit into the lower right. The Traverse seems to largely take up the lower right quarter of the galaxy and part of the outer 'shell' of the upper right quarter. The Veil pretty much takes up the rest of the outer 'shell' of that quarter. And that leaves the inner section of the upper left and right quarters of the galaxy for the Terminus systems, along with parts of the inner section of the lower left and lower right quarters and maybe some of the outer 'shell' in the top of the galaxy.

The Skyillian Verge might be located in the inner section of the lower left quarter, given that the Nemean Abyss apparently has a very high population of Batarians and humans generally don't go there because of that (and where I'm placing that cluster).

--

Interesting note: There was a planet in The Phoenix Massing cluster that the Quarians discovered ~2100. They later petitioned the Citadel for the right to take over the planet (there were development firms colonizing along the equator), but had settled a few hundred thousands Quarians on the world before asking the Council. As a result of the settling without permission, the Council gave the world to the elcor and gave the Quarians one standard month to cease squatting on the world or their colonies would be bombarded.

Something odd: Why was the Turian councilor in ME1 equating the attack on Eden Prime being a result of humans putting colonies in the Traverse? The Veil (and thus Geth space) is pretty much at the other fucking side of the galaxy (and the Traverse) from the attacked colony.

[Chuckg]

Partly political expediency (he doesn't want human colonies near the Traverse and is using this as an excuse to slam on them), and partly political reality (regardless of what the fleet is intended to guard against, whether it be the geth or anything else, a Citadel fleet just being in the Traverse is going to get the Terminus Systems all riled up).

[Arganaut]

Indeed, the Citadel Council is expedient to the point of being conniving, this has claim has not been dismissed by anyone.

Anyway... as to the Quarian situation...... ****ing Turian, Asari and Salarian councilors...

[DidelotM1]

I love most if not all Bioware games, but the general space opera-y feel of mass Effect is up near the top. A little about how I tend to play:

Gender: typically end up as Male Shepard with custom look. Though I did nab a neat Bruce Campbell Shepard off the 'net that I'll have to use my next play through.

ME1- Infiltrator ME2: Infiltrator or Soldier. I played a Vanguard once and thought it was okay, I guess I just love the sniping too much to deviate too far from it. Nothing quite like seeing a poor shlub go from full health to nothing as his head turns into a watermellon at a Gallahger concert.

Playstyle: ME1: Paragon. ME2: Paragon with a dash of Renegade - what can I say? I like being the nice guy hero, being a jerk of any type tends not to sit well with me. That said I won't hesitate to shove the dude out the window, and if I'm running with Jack or Zaeed I tend to go more towards the Renegade side of things. Otherwise it's paragon.

Favorite squad mates: Garrus, Tali The only two characters that if they are not part of the squad in ME3 I will be enraged over. As said before Garrus is the ultimate bro and buddy to my Shepards however his loyalty mission is generally done in the Renegade fashion as I don't suffer Traitors well, not matter how repentant they may be. Tali I utterly adore I DO Admit that it's the mainly the voice actresses fault for that, love that accent and the mannerisms. Wringing her hands nervously, Babbling a mile a minute, etc. Adorable to me yet perfectly able to handle herself and no I do NOT think they should show what Quarians look like, I like a little mystery. Kasumi is a special mention here, mainly because she's DLC and has only a handful of interactions, what I saw I really enjoyed though.

Disliked Squad mates: Jack, Zaeed. Zaeed was just sorta there, there could have been more done with him I feel, but overall he tends to sit in his area. Jack I never liked since the character introduction, but I'll be honest. She's gotten more tolerable than when I first started out. The attitude, look, and overall characterization of the character is something I could do without. That's not to say that I don't want the character in the game, just that she's not my cup of tea. She's most often on the sidelines, sitting down in her little hole in Engineering. I will admit to not running her romance option but I have viewed the culmination elsewhere.

Liked NPCs: Conrad Conrad's an idiot and a fanboy. Some may think he's annoying as hell and he is, but I find it amusing that Shepard has such a..err.. 'dedicated' fanboy. (Edit) Also forgot to mention the Asari bartender on Illium. That was a great character and I always end up exhausting every convo option with that one. I'd love to see that one return somehow.

Disliked NPC: Turian Council member. I loathe that damn turian. 'nuf said.

Most hated opponent: Those floating spider husk things ALWAYS give me trouble. Ugh. Hate dealing with them.

Love interest: ME1 - none (if forced to pick, then Liara) ME2 - It's all about Tali.

[Arganaut]

Dudes... just had an idea...

Instead of slamming into the support beam when the Normandy's blowing up and having those air leaks form and suffocate him to death... Shepard keeps going out into space, flying around. As he approached his last breaths he's picked up by a ship...

A Batarian Slaver ship.

[Chuckg]

If he's alive and healthy, he just takes over the ship Rambo style.

If he croaks, the batarians either toss the corpse into the garbage, or make a fast buck selling it to the Shadow Broker (who had an offer out for it) -- which means the Collectors get their hands on it.

[Phht]

To be honest, I don't think all the leaks can be attributed to his bouncing off the structural beam. And more importantly, I'm not sure he wouldn't still take a tumble through the atmo like he did regardless of how many or few leaks he had.

That being said, I'd agree with chuck.

--

Conrad is creepy. I don't think I ever finished that "side quest" in any play through.

I honestly feel like the 'mood' of the game dictates my play style between paragon and renegade. ME1 was totally paragon. ME2, I took several renegade interrupts - probably did more paragon ones though - while staying mostly paragon. I see it as, in ME1 you're poster boy for the Alliance and humanity. You have to put your best foot forward and make humanity look good, so paragon is the way to go. In ME2 though, you're off in an area that doesn't care about any of that and you have to get things done with fewer resources. Plus, you DID die. So less of the poster boy is there and more of the BAMF comes to the surface outside actual combat.

[Chuckg]

And then there's the paragon interrupts that even the most renegade Shepard in the world takes... notably, the 'give Tali a damn hug' one.

I don't know anyone who has passed that one up, no matter what else their Shepard has done.

[gman391]

Damn straight.

As for Arg's little plot bunny. Not sure it work. How long are the suits able to handle a vacuum? I was under the impression that it wasn't long.

Now for characters.
I honestly dislike Grunt. I get his back story but he's so one dimensional. From ME1 I wasn't a huge fan of Liara. The first play through she's fine but on the replays she got more and more annoying to me.

With Jack I'm kind of a mixed bag here. I did her romance. And frankly felt really bad for her. But I still think she's a bitch.

I like most of the other characters yes even bland Jacob

Right now my problem is that I can't have a strictly platonic friendship with any of my romance options without losing a lot of dialog I like. Dammit Bioware we're not all out to score...

[Arganaut]

Personally I liked most of the NPCs in Mass Effect (save for the Council, Udina and TIM of course), they all seemed like decent people, had interesting quirks and their back stories helped add to their character. In fact, I personally found Conrad more hilarious and a tad creepy than annoying.

Oh, and g, isn't that the truth. Even when you just want to be friends with some of the cast they take it as romance (even Mordin jokes about this if you talk to him long enough). I've heard that its terrible concerning female Shepard and Jacob, that nearly every line of dialogue basically has to trying to jump him.

The interruptions were indeed good for both sides. Like Phht said, ME2 almost seems to be a game where playing dirty at times is almost as good an option as being a goody two shoes. With that said however, I agree again with chuck: I have never met a player who didn't hug Tali.

As for my plot bunny:

I don't think long-term survival in a void would be too far out of the question by the date set by the game. After all, galactic civilization has been going on for thousands of years, and given that humanity pre-integration had pretty good systems in check via survival in an atmosphere-less, open space environment (the moon) (granted, it wasn't long term, but it was still for a good number of hours) I wouldn't be surprised if something had been drawn up.

I don't think he'd take a good tummble through the nearby planet's atmosphere either. However, without the beam in place he wouldn't be bounced towards the nearby planet, momentum would carry him out into the vacuum. But point taken, an explosion to the face (several in fact) would pretty much ruin anyone's suit.

I guess the reason why I thought of the plot bunny in the first place was because the idea of a galactic rat race between all the people who'd be looking for Shepard in this case. Cerberus, the Shadow Broker's men and clients, Batarian Slavers, (unless I'm mistaken on the timing of this group) Legion's troupe of 'True Geth' and who knows what else. For some reason the idea of a trans-Traverse/Terminus goose chase for Shepard, whom himself is just trying to get back into contact with the Alliance/Council, seemed just a little too epic to not think about.

[DidelotM1]

I've always honestly been curious to know what Legion and the Geth would have done with Shep had they found him?

_ Favorite ME2 Quotes _

- anytime Tali stammers and fumbles her words nervously during the romance, never fails to make me smile.

- 'just step back and take a deep breath' 'you're *breath* mocking *breath* me *breath* Earth-clan!'

- the paragon choice with the punchable reporter.

and many many more.

[Phht]

For the record, do not ever try to realistically place ME locations in the galaxy using real world data. It'll only give you a headache.

Spoiler: show

The Crescent Nebula is 5000ly away, not the other side of the galaxy. If you shift it to be 015.xxx on the galactic coordinates longitude rather than 75.477, you'd probably end up in the correct general direction from Earth. Maybe located ~55k ly from Earth.

The Horse Head Nebula is 1500 ly away, and is actually further out than Earth, not closer to the center. Though if you mirror it across the 270 degree point (turning it from 207 to 333), you'd end up in the path of where they placed it in game. And put it 10,000ly out instead of 1500, and I think you'd land right on the game placement.

Rosette Nebula (s275) is ~6000ly away and in the same general direction as the Horse Head Nebula. Not quite sure how to modify it to fit MEverse.

--

Just looked at the opening sequence (thanks youtube!). After Shepard gets Joker into the pod, he gets bounced back towards the cockpit as that section of the ship breaks loose of the main body. Gravity's lost, and Shepard pops the launch button before drifting towards where the airlock is located on the other side of the passageway. The explosion throws him towards the open 'air' and bouncing off the beam.

If Shepard stayed inside that section, he would've de-orbited with that section and probably died during reentry or the sudden stop at the end (or in an explosion as it falls towards the planet). If he got ejected from the section without hitting the beam, he still wouldn't have had sufficient velocity to escape the planet's pull. Of course, the fun thing to think about would be - what if he missed hitting that beam, and the Collector ship picked him up before he slipped into the atmosphere? Harbinger!Shepard?


--

I just realized that the best place to put a black ops project is a cluster that's only accessed via primary relay. Other than Local Cluster, there is definitely one "nearby" - Styx Theta. If the Alliance can get control of Horse Head Nebula, they can fortify the nebula side of the pair, and run the black ops stuff in the other cluster. As a bonus, it's near the five kiloparsec ring, so no one really wants to try to wander around the area to sneak in on FTL.

--

Dude, the Quarian Citadel quest? Have you done it with TALI in your party? That girl gets scary. I think some of our Renegade-ness rubbed off on her (but it was totally sterilized! No chance of illness!).

[DidelotM1]

[quote="Phht"Dude, the Quarian Citadel quest? Have you done it with TALI in your party? That girl gets scary. I think some of our Renegade-ness rubbed off on her (but it was totally sterilized! No chance of illness!).[/quote]

Yes I have and it amuses me greatly. I also agree with the Tali-hug an almost requirement, I know I can't pass it by.

[Magnificate]

As for my favourite characters, in MA1 my team consisted of Liara and Tali for pretty much the whole game. These two characters were a class above the rest. No such clear choice in MA2 where my squad was rotated from mission to mission and everybody got their share, except for Grunt. Not to mention that loyalty missions for most of them were very well constructed, with Garrus’s and Tali’s missions being my favourites.

As for interrupts, actually there is no real reason not to take most of them, both Paragon and Renegate. Indeed, Tali hug interrupt is pretty much mandatory for any being with a soul, but my personal favourite was the one with blocking Garrus’s line of shot. Of course there are no comparable interrupts in MA1, but in that game ‘Little Wing’ is perhaps the most emotional.

[DidelotM1]

[Phht]

Total Borg Vibe there.

Of course, there was that "We are the beginning, you will be the end." That's definitely intriguing to hear, and I wonder what they mean by that.

--

The Citadel needs to be turned into a Genesis device. Flip the relay on, reapers pop into the Serpent Nebula, set off the Genesis device. Scratch one nebula (full of reapers).

Of course, the loss of the entire relay network would be collateral damage from doing that.

[Arganaut]

I think I see what you find interesting about that statement. Rather than just repeat the nonsense about salvation through destruction, Harbinger describes us (Shepard/Humanity/Citadel Space/all of the above?) as 'the end'. Not at our end, but as the end to their beginning.

Still, I find myself reaching for how exactly this end could be any different than any of the other numerous 'ends' the Reapers have created over the millennium. Unless they plan to flush all of existence into a black hole, that is.

As to Phht's ideas of turning the Citadel into a Genesis device... I dunno. Since the Reapers were the original creators of the entire relay network I can't just wave off the destruction of the Citadel with a 'eh, we'll just build another'. If we ever really, and I mean really, needed to just flat out nuke the Reapers and this plan was our only option... alright, go for it. But I think it should, at the very least, be a 'in case of imminent annihilation of all galactic life, break glass' sort of plan.

[gman391]

I can't help but wonder if the Reapers are just following rote programming. For all their power they don't seem terribly adaptive.
So maybe they don't know the end. They're just following old code that's long since lost any meaning.

Machines don't create themselves....some one made the Reapers for a purpose.
Now the question is what was that purpose?

[Phht]

But I think it should, at the very least, be a 'in case of imminent annihilation of all galactic life, break glass' sort of plan.

You mean, such as a massive reaper invasion? ;)

--

The reapers are gonna be facing stiff resistance by the time they invade. Turian ships will probably be fielding more MHWs, and asari ships will have their Silaris armor, frigates and fighters with CBTs.... And if Shepard brings the Normandy 2 back to the Alliance, then the Alliance will have access to all of that to put on their Navy. This won't be a simple extermination mission for the reapers. It's gonna be an all out war, and the Citadel will probably be the most heavily defended and fortified location, so shutting down the entire network will be tough to pull off.

Also, the concept of lots of reapers in one game makes me think of the tagline for Aliens (which had lots of xenomorphs instead of just one). "This time, it's war."

--

Yeah, I was listening to it and it's all "blah blah attracted attention of something infinitely more powerful blah blah bring you closer to perfection blah blah raise you to a higher form blah blah we are the beginning you will be the end blah blah harbinger of your evolution blah blah." One of these statements is not like the rest.

I almost wonder if there's some 'prophecy' regarding the end of the reapers at the hands of their 'successors' or something. Or maybe it's time for a larger cycle to wind close before beginning anew?

I mean, honestly. Humanity's on the galactic stage for a total of 26 years (2157-2183) at the time of Mass Effect 1. And they ended up critical to the prevention of Sovereign's Plan B (a variation on Plan A - remote activate Citadel relay and summon in the rest of the reapers) and killed a Reaper in ship-to-ship combat. So naturally Harbinger's all "WTF? Need more data! Oh, and kill that Shepard guy, just in case." And over two years, Harbinger apparently became impressed enough by humanity to get the Collectors all working on a human reaper. At which point that damn Shepard guy comes back from the dead and curbstomps another Reaper plot. I wouldn't be surprised if Plan D begins "After humanity has been erased from the galaxy..." because if you don't keep an eye on those humans or wipe them out, they'll pull something out their ass to save the day (yet again).



It'll turn out that everything was set in motion hundreds of thousands of yeas ago for humanity's ascension, and the reapers were there to set the stage and cull the non-chosen races until the time of prophecy started (which would've been when Plan A for exterminating the galaxy failed, and Plan B's failure, and certainly by the time Plan C failed).

[ewuvi]

...securing things for the master race? Jeez, that sounds really bad.

[Arganaut]

...securing things for the master race? Jeez, that sounds really bad.

... SECRET NAZI SUBDIREKTOR HARBINGER!
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